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Cadillac Gage out of Calibration

allloutmx

Titanium
Joined
Mar 6, 2013
Location
Rochester, NY
I would like to purchase an older, but decent looking Cadillac gage. The only thing Im hung up on is the out of calibration sticker.... The calibration guy is long gone, so im not sure exactly why any of them are out of tolerance. So with that said.... is this a worth while venture? What is involved in getting a Cadillac gage back into gaging quality? What are some things I should be looking at on the gage before I dive in?

Thanks in advance
 
Do you mean one of the old Cadillac Pla-Check ones like this?
Cadillac height gauge pla-chek hg-6 gage

There is not a lot to these (and they read to .0001 - no vernier on the ones I have seen) - the things that could cause them to go out of cal would be bent shaft and wear on the gauging surfaces. Otherwise the stack is adjusted to the set point (0) when you assemble or reassemble. I picked one up for all of about $30 in OK condition, pulled it appart to clean etc and the zero set was fairly inituative. Of course you need a reference to do the zero set like a gauge block. Possible it justs needs adjusting.

That said, if I was going to spend real money (the $30 that I spent was hey kind of cool no big deal if it winds up a throw away) I would look for one of the newer style height masters with top and bottom gauging surfaces on the same plane - like the Mititoyo, starrett, alina, trimos.... staggered blocks.

I'm sure Leigh and others will correct any foot in mouth errors I just made.

Paul
 
Do you mean one of the old Cadillac Pla-Check ones like this?
Cadillac height gauge pla-chek hg-6 gage

There is not a lot to these (and they read to .0001 - no vernier on the ones I have seen) - the things that could cause them to go out of cal would be bent shaft and wear on the gauging surfaces. Otherwise the stack is adjusted to the set point (0) when you assemble or reassemble. I picked one up for all of about $30 in OK condition, pulled it appart to clean etc and the zero set was fairly inituative. Of course you need a reference to do the zero set like a gauge block. Possible it justs needs adjusting.

That said, if I was going to spend real money (the $30 that I spent was hey kind of cool no big deal if it winds up a throw away) I would look for one of the newer style height masters with top and bottom gauging surfaces on the same plane - like the Mititoyo, starrett, alina, trimos.... staggered blocks.

I'm sure Leigh and others will correct any foot in mouth errors I just made.

Paul

Just like that... I went ahead and bought it. For $35 bucks, how do you say no?
With out knowing anything about the mechanics inside this thing, I imagined there was a screw and some sort of nut or coupler the aid in the axial movement, and I was thinking this is where the error would lie....

photo.jpg
 
I would like to purchase an older, but decent looking Cadillac gage. The only thing Im hung up on is the out of calibration sticker.... The calibration guy is long gone, so im not sure exactly why any of them are out of tolerance. So with that said.... is this a worth while venture? What is involved in getting a Cadillac gage back into gaging quality? What are some things I should be looking at on the gage before I dive in?

Thanks in advance

It'll depend on what accuracy you intend using it for but can't you do a quick check using gage blocks and a good surface table?

This is the set-up I mean https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vq9peEV5aUM except instead of reading the height gage I'd compare the reading from the height gages to the indicator to see if, or how far it is, from zero.
 
The term "out of calibration" normally refers to the certification process in use at a particular company, not to the accuracy of the instrument.
I think the vast majority of companies operate on a 12-month cal cycle, with some using 6 months for high-precision instruments.

Any company that is certified to any of the ISO QA standards must have defined calibration cycles for all appropriate instruments and tools.

This is particularly important with mechanical instruments that can experience errors due to wear.

A proper cal lab will keep track of the as-received data for each instrument, and develop a trend line over time (several years).
This enables them to offset the cal adjustment slightly so that with wear the error will diminish to zero, then increase in later months.

For example, if they find that a particular instrument changes by .001" per year, they might set it initially high by .0005", so it wears through zero.

This applies mainly to tools that are heavily used, as in a production environment.
Similar tools used in an prototype shop or a research lab will probably not wear noticeably in a year.

- Leigh
 
The term "out of calibration" normally refers to the certification process in use at a particular company, not to the accuracy of the instrument.
I think the vast majority of companies operate on a 12-month cal cycle, with some using 6 months for high-precision instruments.

Any company that is certified to any of the ISO QA standards must have defined calibration cycles for all appropriate instruments and tools.

This is particularly important with mechanical instruments that can experience errors due to wear.

A proper cal lab will keep track of the as-received data for each instrument, and develop a trend line over time (several years).
This enables them to offset the cal adjustment slightly so that with wear the error will diminish to zero, then increase in later months.

For example, if they find that a particular instrument changes by .001" per year, they might set it initially high by .0005", so it wears through zero.

This applies mainly to tools that are heavily used, as in a production environment.
Similar tools used in an prototype shop or a research lab will probably not wear noticeably in a year.

- Leigh

Interesting. If I saw "out of calibration" on a piece of equipment I'd take that as meaning it wasn't within spec.

Most of the ISO 9001 companies I visit here have coloured stickers or markers and of course most often in Danish, but I don't remember any saying the equivalent of "out of calibration". Damned if I can remember what they said when I used them.

There is one here (out of the amazing quantity) that says OUT OF CALIBRATION DO NOT USE so from now on I'll assume it's past "the due date" for calibration.

https://www.google.dk/search?q=cali...v&sa=X&ei=Y7otVKnKK-njywOL5IDwDg&ved=0CCwQsAQ

Maybe DO NOT USE UNTIL CALIBRATED would eliminate doubt?
 
Interesting. If I saw "out of calibration" on a piece of equipment I'd take that as meaning it wasn't within spec.
Not true at all (here), since the sticker would have been affixed by a manager, floor QA staff, or similar, having no access to cal gear.

That would never be affixed by a cal lab since they would simply calibrate it and affix a new valid sticker.

The reason for those is always (in my experience) because the Cal Valid Until or Next Cal Due or similar defined date has passed.

Maybe DO NOT USE UNTIL CALIBRATED would eliminate doubt?
That would certainly be reasonable wording, although I see no doubt in the other.

Most of my experience has been with high-precision high-reliability environments like NASA and similar.
They take Quality Assurance very seriously. If something is past the cal date, using it is usually a terminating offense.

- Leigh
 
I walked back into our grinding department one day and said "holy hell, someone bought a Cadillac gauge!" The response from the two journeyman sitting at the granite was "you know what this is? How do we use it?"

It was a brand new Mitutoyo, and digital. Salesman said they could check squareness with it. Still haven't figured that one out.

Wish I had bought one of the old Starrett's from the shop I used to work at. Read .00005 if I remember right. Sold for $85 or so. Course, I was on a REAL tight budget then. Things that made chips were more important than the high end precision measuring equipment.

Enjoy, they are an awesome tool!

Leigh, not poking fun at you, but I wish you worked where I work, or I worked with you. Our cabinets are full of precision tool that says a number of things, usually "for reference only". Like our gauge blocks. We did not have a set of gauge blocks (4 partial sets) until I bought a nice Starrett metric set. Course QA wouldn't calibrate it, so I "calibrated" it myself. Oh, and I work at an ISO, TS14( I forget the rest) multi billion international supplier of automotive components.
 
Just to add, equipment gets "retired" by metrology departments in two ways. First, it may fail calibration, be marked as such, and then someone else gets to decide how to dispose of it. I suspect some get purchased in bulk and end up on Ebay and who knows where else. Second, it may be obsoleted but kept around "just in case." An out-of-calibration notice might very well be applied, to make sure it isn't used without returning to the lab for a current calibration. Later on, it might get sold or remaindered.

The OP will have to perform some checks to decide where on the continuum from "no longer needed" to "no longer accurate" his Cadillac gage may be.
 
Leigh, not poking fun at you, but I wish you worked where I work, or I worked with you.
Our cabinets are full of precision tool that says a number of things, usually "for reference only".
That's pretty common in my experience.

Proper (external) calibration costs money. It's a recurring expense.

Quite often, tools that are no longer needed are kept for reference and possible secondary use, with that notation over the cal sticker.
Without that, a cal lab will fail any quality audit. Cal labs are not allowed to have uncalibrated anything, unless appropriately marked.

I've even seen cal labs put those stickers on pencils (joking, of course).

We did not have a set of gauge blocks (4 partial sets) until I bought a nice Starrett metric set. Course QA wouldn't calibrate it, so I "calibrated" it myself. Oh, and I work at an ISO, TS14( I forget the rest) multi billion international supplier of automotive components.
Perhaps your cal lab does not have the requisite equipment to certify a gage block set. Few labs do.

Using such gear for your own information is fine, but don't try to certify any deliverable with it. Won't work.

The general rule is that no company can self-certify any measuring instrument.
The only way to get around that is to become a primary cal lab for whatever parameters you want to certify. That ain't easy, and it's expensive.

As an example, Fluke makes very precise voltage measuring equipment. They're set up as a primary lab for such measurements.
But they're not a primary lab for other stuff, like mechanical measurement. Their machine shop QA must send precision instruments out for cal.

- Leigh
 
Just like a micrometer test it in a few places perhaps .125 , .250, .500 and .750 as the screw thread is the weakest part and gets washed out first. it was a large thread perhaps a one inch-40 or so.

Yes the feet get most wear but they can be adjusted. actually I don't remember if the feet were adjustable or if they took a shim, because they had button feet not a screw like some other brands
The height is set at the top and one would only have to adjust the feet if there was tilt.

The brown and sharpe had one inch blocks so one could top or bottom measure with not setting in inserts for doing opposite measure. an improvement IMHO.


I followed one of these bad boys from the Grosebeck shop to the beach to watch the water test.
Photo is not the same beach because there was not a tug at Metro Beach.
The engine was a version of Chrysler 318 called the 360. It was short on power so the vehicle went to diesel.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadillac_Gage_Commando
 
That's pretty common in my experience.

Perhaps your cal lab does not have the requisite equipment to certify a gage block set. Few labs do.

Using such gear for your own information is fine, but don't try to certify any deliverable with it. Won't work.

- Leigh

Oh, they have everything necessary to calibrate the gauge blocks. But that takes time. They have certified master, certified super mic, and our one QS lab CMM is certified to some crazy spec. They CAN do it. But it's a lot of work. So instead I am to hide my gauges blocks and not let anyone doing an audit see them.

In the tool room I have helped machine gauges and tooling to very tight tolerances and at times have needed gauge blocks. As such I have used my own. It's humorous to me machining a part with a total tolerance of .005 mm in a non-climate controlled shop with non calibrated gauge blocks. Whatever, it was just a gauge for a ford production line.
 
Makes good sense... I wouldnt have thought of them marking it out of cal just because of an expired date. Ill run some checks on some good blocks and see how she runs. I have a insert for zeroing the top of the indicator tip which is pretty swift. The mity height gage i have on my bench at work has me spoiled... And i thought thatwas old school.

image.jpg

I appreciate the help
 
Not true at all (here), since the sticker would have been affixed by a manager, floor QA staff, or similar, having no access to cal gear.

That would never be affixed by a cal lab since they would simply calibrate it and affix a new valid sticker.

The reason for those is always (in my experience) because the Cal Valid Until or Next Cal Due or similar defined date has passed.

- Leigh

Some of the larger companies here have the equipment and facilities to calibrate (and of course with the appropriate approval) some (not all) of their own equipment.

The calibration lab (external or internal) apply the yay or nay sticker but almost all others are attached by those internally that have the responsibility of monitoring calibration and calibration intervals.
 
Oh, they have everything necessary to calibrate the gauge blocks. But that takes time. They have certified master, certified super mic, and our one QS lab CMM is certified to some crazy spec. They CAN do it. But it's a lot of work. So instead I am to hide my gauges blocks and not let anyone doing an audit see them.

In the tool room I have helped machine gauges and tooling to very tight tolerances and at times have needed gauge blocks. As such I have used my own. It's humorous to me machining a part with a total tolerance of .005 mm in a non-climate controlled shop with non calibrated gauge blocks. Whatever, it was just a gauge for a ford production line.

I'll bet we'll never be told the name of your company LOL

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VGW-cfP3CqE

Some of your customers?
 
I know this is years after the question was asked, but the reply might come in handy to others who seek the same information.

United Standards Lab calibrates these Cadillac Pla-Check gauges. In 2017 the price was $95 and shipping is on your own account. Turnaround time is about a week, unless their calibration guy is on vacation.

Good luck.


I would like to purchase an older, but decent looking Cadillac gage. The only thing Im hung up on is the out of calibration sticker.... The calibration guy is long gone, so im not sure exactly why any of them are out of tolerance. So with that said.... is this a worth while venture? What is involved in getting a Cadillac gage back into gaging quality? What are some things I should be looking at on the gage before I dive in?

Thanks in advance
 
I worked for a large defense contractor that had their own calibration lab, if you bought a tool that they serviced it was always repaired and calibrated. I actually bought broken indicators that were full of coolant and a micrometer for $5.00 that had chipped measuring faces and sent them in to get a sticker. They completely rebuilt the indicator and lapped the anvil and spindle on that micrometer, I can only tell which indicator I had rebuilt from the one I bought new because they told me when they replaced the dial that they didn't have one that read jeweled bearings on it.
Fast forward 20 years after the machine shop was sold to another company that decided to use an outside calibration service. I decided within the first year that I'd never send another of my tools in. I would send in an indicator and it would come back sticking or missing an important attachment, micrometers that wouldn't line up on zero or the tool never came back? I over heard many conversations about this with former work mates. Really a shoddy deal for someone particular about his tools. I finally told the supervisors that I took all my tools home and used them on the sly and kept out of sight.
Being ISO certified from my point of view is really meaningless in some regards, only there as window dressing for an opportunity to lure customers that demand it. Any doubts in this regard all one has to do is look around, electrical fires on new commercial air craft, automotive air bags that hurt/kill people and the products that never get mentioned but are just sub standard.
I never needed a sticker on a measuring tool to tell me it was OK to use, not that I'm special or anything just saying.
Dan
 
For $35 bucks, how do you say no?

A plate check to a good Jo block and a couple tenths should be found.. we had stick-in steps with ours so you could read up-side and down side.
I see photos of some that have a double step but never used that kind.

Think the B&S height master knocked them off first choice... it had up and down gauging and easier to make IMHO..

Watched this being water tested at Metropolition beach..shop was on Groesbeck in Warren Mi.
Cadillac gage military vehicle - Google Search
 
Think the B&S height master knocked them off first choice... it had up and down gauging and easier to make IMHO..
THANK YOU! ... for reminding my the "why" of that. Always liked B&S anyway, of course.

Dithering for over two years whilst tracking used Pla-Check's.

Dime dropped on the B&S left-right split for bisexual convenience, just bought a used B&S a few minutes ago instead.

Lot more than $35, but value for money.
 








 
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