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Just a short vent...
- Thread starter EmilySue
- Start date
- Replies 18
- Views 3,599
Gobo
Titanium
- Joined
- Jun 4, 2013
- Location
- Oregon, USA
Not really.
Gordon B. Clarke
Banned
- Joined
- May 29, 2010
- Location
- Denmark
I think I'd be more worried if I saw the opposite.
An operator constantly checking and re-checking the MOST important feature on a part.
Bit like being asked if the blink lights work on a car. Yes, no, yes, no, yes no ............
The real Leigh
Diamond
- Joined
- Nov 23, 2005
- Location
- Maryland
The importance of a feature to a part is not in any way related to the difficulty in making the feature correctly.
Some folks just like to validate the accuracy of their work.
- Leigh
CarbideBob
Diamond
- Joined
- Jan 14, 2007
- Location
- Flushing/Flint, Michigan
I'm not sure an operator should determine the importance of a feature. That's an engineering function along with determining the measuring method, frequency and tolerances so that rechecking is not needed.
If this is happening the problem is maybe a bit upstream from the operator level.
The thing that bothers me most no matter the "importance" of a feature is the operator who checks and rechecks until it checks good.
How often I'll see 2-3-4-5 bad checks and then it finally checks in size once. ....Ship it.
I've seen parts go though an automated gage over 10 times until you get a green light and out the door they go with a "good part" check report.
Run, save the rejects, recalibrate the gage, run the rejects through again, rinse and repeat.
Makes me want to cry.
Yes some people like to validate their measurements but you rarely see someone check a second time if the first time checked good.
Yet if the first bad and the second good most pass it.
I always ask people "What if your first check was good and just for giggles you checked it a second time and that was out. Good or bad part?"
You get blank stares or a confused look.
Worse yet is the answer that "Obviously the second measurement is not right" at which point I don't know what to say as life has proven that it simply leads to unsolvable discussions so I just give up and keep my head down.
Bob
If this is happening the problem is maybe a bit upstream from the operator level.
The thing that bothers me most no matter the "importance" of a feature is the operator who checks and rechecks until it checks good.
How often I'll see 2-3-4-5 bad checks and then it finally checks in size once. ....Ship it.
I've seen parts go though an automated gage over 10 times until you get a green light and out the door they go with a "good part" check report.
Run, save the rejects, recalibrate the gage, run the rejects through again, rinse and repeat.
Makes me want to cry.
Yes some people like to validate their measurements but you rarely see someone check a second time if the first time checked good.
Yet if the first bad and the second good most pass it.
I always ask people "What if your first check was good and just for giggles you checked it a second time and that was out. Good or bad part?"
You get blank stares or a confused look.
Worse yet is the answer that "Obviously the second measurement is not right" at which point I don't know what to say as life has proven that it simply leads to unsolvable discussions so I just give up and keep my head down.
Bob
The real Leigh
Diamond
- Joined
- Nov 23, 2005
- Location
- Maryland
Hi Bob,
I did not suggest that the operator made that determination.
- Leigh
I did not suggest that the operator made that determination.
- Leigh
CarbideBob
Diamond
- Joined
- Jan 14, 2007
- Location
- Flushing/Flint, Michigan
Yes, I got that Leigh. In no way pointed your direction.
Just a longer rant of my own on rechecking as it drives me batty when people don't get the "human nature" or "production pressure" to want to make it measure good.
I so hate "measure it until it passes".
It is a pet peeve.
There is always measuring error, using it to ship parts or engineering/management/supervision not knowing the errors and how it all works on the floor......
But if the customer rejects parts or they fail in the field and they recall a bunch of cars, guess who gets hung out to dry as the bad guy in the end?
Not the management, not the engineers of the process. Problem being that everyone wants to ship parts as that is what pays us all.
When it goes south it's like the "6 phases of a project" step 4 and 5 and somehow I've been in this witch-hunt too many times.
An operator should not have to recheck parts period. Something in the system is wrong if they are doing it.
It costs real money.
At today's rates a minute lost is 2 dollars in the value stream so I get the op's frustration and vent 100%.
Bob
Just a longer rant of my own on rechecking as it drives me batty when people don't get the "human nature" or "production pressure" to want to make it measure good.
I so hate "measure it until it passes".
It is a pet peeve.
There is always measuring error, using it to ship parts or engineering/management/supervision not knowing the errors and how it all works on the floor......
But if the customer rejects parts or they fail in the field and they recall a bunch of cars, guess who gets hung out to dry as the bad guy in the end?
Not the management, not the engineers of the process. Problem being that everyone wants to ship parts as that is what pays us all.
When it goes south it's like the "6 phases of a project" step 4 and 5 and somehow I've been in this witch-hunt too many times.
An operator should not have to recheck parts period. Something in the system is wrong if they are doing it.
It costs real money.
At today's rates a minute lost is 2 dollars in the value stream so I get the op's frustration and vent 100%.
Bob
Spruewell
Hot Rolled
- Joined
- Sep 8, 2015
- Location
- Northern California
How about when you are totally slammed with work and also trying to bring in another machine and your operator looks around and says “Oh! You wat to bring in another machine so you can do more work.” Or when he points at a 1/2” 4 flute end mill and asks, “what kinda drill bit is that?” as it is cutting across a part
Gordon B. Clarke
Banned
- Joined
- May 29, 2010
- Location
- Denmark
Surprising no one has asked. Why just "see"? Shouldn't someone find out why this is happening and possibly offer to help.
"Nothing to do with me" is not helping in any way.
Larry Dickman
Titanium
- Joined
- Jan 30, 2014
- Location
- Temecula, Ca
Parts could still be rejected for having the least important feature wrong. Most operators around here change parts, turn around and go back to fucking with their cell phones. At least he's checking something.
Joe Miranda
Titanium
- Joined
- Oct 19, 2004
- Location
- Elyria Ohio
I am not sure this relates to the situation that EmilySue is dealing with but sometimes we will fixture subsequent operations off a feature that the designer or engineer don't consider to be a critical feature. Obviously we will look at that feature differently if we are fixturing off it. So yes, we'll check and re-check that 'non-critical" feature.
Gordon B. Clarke
Banned
- Joined
- May 29, 2010
- Location
- Denmark
I guess "most operators" need a nanny with a whip. Is anyone in charge as it sounds more like a kindergarten?
Do that here and chances are you'd be looking for another job.
Are wages so low the employer is grateful for anybody he can get?
Larry Dickman
Titanium
- Joined
- Jan 30, 2014
- Location
- Temecula, Ca
It's something I won't tolerate. But whenever I'm at a friend's or a customer's shop, that's all I see are cell phone addicts. I don't say anything though. I don't want anyone telling me how to run my shop, so I extend the courtesy. Wages are usually above average. I don't get it.
azmachining
Cast Iron
- Joined
- Dec 26, 2014
- Location
- Central Valley, AZ
steve-l
Titanium
- Joined
- Mar 2, 2012
- Location
- Geilenkirchen, Germany
I don't know, perhaps I'm just old, but cell phones appear to be worse than drugs in our society today. In a machine shop, at the very least, they would be a distraction and distractions are dangerous in our business.
Gordon B. Clarke
Banned
- Joined
- May 29, 2010
- Location
- Denmark
The only reason I can find is weak management. I wouldn't mind anyone telling me how to run my business if it was given as good advice. I can take it or not. My choice. There's, to me at least, a difference between criticism and constructive advice.
Gordon B. Clarke
Banned
- Joined
- May 29, 2010
- Location
- Denmark
I agree. They are useful and of course I have one but to some they seem more important than a real friend.Get caught talking on a hand held phone here and the fine is $250 + 1 point deducted on your license. 3 points and you lose your license. Driving without a seat belt costs $150 for everyone in the car without a seat belt fastened. Kids in the car and not fastened then you are in trouble + a hefty fine.
jhruska
Titanium
- Joined
- Jul 5, 2009
- Location
- Munster, In. USA
When there is no tolerance or it is wide open tell them that surface gets painted.
John
Tony Quiring
Titanium
- Joined
- Nov 5, 2008
- Location
- Madera county california usa
When " multiple measurements are performed until passed " is stated the hairs stand up...
The measurement should be the "same" (limited to the repeatability of all equipment ).
If repeat measurements are not the same then the process is not repeatable and needs to be addressed.
If an operator is spending a lot of time focusing on some features then time for a discussion as he may have difficulty making that and is concerned with outcome.
Difficulty could be skill set, setup or other things beyond their control.
So for now take it as good thing that the operator is showing concern for quality and follow up to address the reasons for the actions.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337Z using Tapatalk
The measurement should be the "same" (limited to the repeatability of all equipment ).
If repeat measurements are not the same then the process is not repeatable and needs to be addressed.
If an operator is spending a lot of time focusing on some features then time for a discussion as he may have difficulty making that and is concerned with outcome.
Difficulty could be skill set, setup or other things beyond their control.
So for now take it as good thing that the operator is showing concern for quality and follow up to address the reasons for the actions.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337Z using Tapatalk
