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Mirror for autocollimator will a laser mirror work?

millermachine

Cast Iron
Joined
Feb 12, 2004
Location
Carrollton IL
I am needing a reference mirror for my Hilger Watts autocollimator. I have a chance to get some mirrors from a laser leveling set. Will these work with an older style autocollimator. Thanks
Brian
 
There are lots of different kinds of mirrors.

A tenth-wave first-surface mirror of the appropriate size should be readily available, from Edmund Optics or other sources.

- Leigh
 
Depending on the reflectivity at visible light wavelength, they may work fine. If they have wavelength-specific coatings for the leveling laser, that may be a different issue. Best choice would be an aluminized and overcoated first-surface mirror (as Leigh mentions, 1/10 wave would be a good choice). Make sure that the mirror is as large or larger than the autocollimator aperture, so as to use all the light emitted by the autocollimator light source. If the mirror is smaller, the return from the mirror is fainter, in proportion to the reduction is mirror size.
 
Thanks for the information. The only information I could find on the mirror spec was flat with in (3uin) u was the closes letter for the micro symbol. As far as diameter 2 inch is recommended but as small as 1/2 inch can be used. Thanks
Brian Miller



Depending on the reflectivity at visible light wavelength, they may work fine. If they have wavelength-specific coatings for the leveling laser, that may be a different issue. Best choice would be an aluminized and overcoated first-surface mirror (as Leigh mentions, 1/10 wave would be a good choice). Make sure that the mirror is as large or larger than the autocollimator aperture, so as to use all the light emitted by the autocollimator light source. If the mirror is smaller, the return from the mirror is fainter, in proportion to the reduction is mirror size.
 
Another issue that may or may not be important, depending on how you plan to use the mirror, is how parallel the back surface is to the front.
 
If the mirror is front surface, the parallelism of the substrate means nothing

Another issue that may or may not be important, depending on how you plan to use the mirror, is how parallel the back surface is to the front.


The mounting scheme, MUST accommodate adjustment. A fixed mount is worthless! Unless you are trying to qualify a surface reference.

ps He Ne lasers at 633 nm are a bit in the red for visible applications. a classical Autocollimator uses visible light, or even a "green 546 nm filter".

The laser reflectors may provide a dim return on the AC illumination.

cheers

Cal
 
The mounting scheme, MUST accommodate adjustment. A fixed mount is worthless! Unless you are trying to qualify a surface reference.
Your qualifier of "unless" covers a lot of territory where a fixed mount is valuable. I have a Hilger & Watts autocollimator, and the mirror I use with it depends on the type of measurement I'm doing. For example, I have a K&E mirror with a magnetic base that's parallel to the mirror. That allows me to stick the mirror to a surface and align that surface with respect to another. For this purpose, adjustability is not only unneeded, it's undesireable. This is why the parallelism of the surface to the back of the substrate is essential, at least for this important class of measurements.
 
This is why the parallelism of the surface to the back of the substrate is essential, at least for this important class of measurements.
Actually I don't believe that's true.

Accurate first-surface mirrors are normally mounted with the front against the reference surface.

What happens behind the mirror is just mechanical support, which does not affect the mirror alignment WRT the base in any way.

- Leigh
 
Actually I don't believe that's true.

Accurate first-surface mirrors are normally mounted with the front against the reference surface.

What happens behind the mirror is just mechanical support, which does not affect the mirror alignment WRT the base in any way.
I have at least 20 front surface mirrors in various types of mounts within a few feet of where I'm typing this, so I know of what I speak. If you think about what you've written for a minute, you will realize why it must be wrong. To determine the orientation of particular surface with an autocollimator requires having a mirror parallel to that surface. The most accurate way to do that is to have a front surface mirror deposited on a substrate whose two faces are accurately parallel, and mount that mirror on the surface to be measured. The alternative is to mount the mirror in a goniometer, and then use the index marks on the goniometer to set the alignment of the mirror. That clearly introduces errors due to the resolution of the mount, as well as the accuracy of its construction. The most accurate mirrors I own have the front and rear surfaces parallel to each other to 1/20 wave as determined interferometrically (the reflective coating is deposited after the substrate is characterized).
 
Accurate first-surface mirrors are normally mounted with the front against the reference surface.
What happens behind the mirror is just mechanical support, which does not affect the mirror alignment WRT the base in any way.
Addendum: I found the specs for one of the unmounted 1/10 lambda front-surface mirrors I use with my autocollimator. The front and rear surfaces of the substrate for that mirror are parallel to 11 arc-sec. That means when the back of that mirror is attached directly to the surface I want to measure, and if the autocollimator is located 10 m away (~30 ft.), the positional inaccuracy of my measurement of the surface is equivalent to the autocollimator being offset sideways by just under 0.002" from where it should have been. The resolution of the autocollimator is 0.2 arc-sec., so the mirror is the limitation on the overall accuracy of the system.
 
Leigh is correct...............................you need a first-surface mirror for this application............what's behind the silvering is moot!
The OP asked about a "reference mirror." But, he also said it was for an "old style" autocollimator and wondered if a mirror from a "laser leveling" set would work. I inferred from this that he is not very familiar with optics, or the use of his autocollimator, which is why I pointed out the type of mirror he needs depends on his application. If he just wants to bounce the light back to the autocollimator, even a back surface mirror would be fine. Actually, a bathroom mirror is of sufficient quality to tell him if the illumination source and reticule are working as they should. If he wants to do more than this, than the intended application determines what kind of mirror and mount he should be looking for.
 
The most accurate way to do that is to have a front surface mirror deposited on a substrate whose two faces are accurately parallel, and mount that mirror on the surface to be measured.
That's one way to accomplish the task. The downside is that it requires a mirror blank with parallel surfaces.

The most common method I've encountered, and the one shown in the autocollimator (AC) instruction manuals, is to use a mirror mounted in a fixture.
The fixture can come in many different forms. The specifics don't matter.

The critical factor is that the reference surface (think picture frame) is accurately perpendicular to the base of the fixture. The mirror is mounted in the fixture such that its face is against the reference surface, thus defining the relationship between the AC axis and the surface being measured.

One common usage for such an appliance is measuring the accuracy of table movement on a mill or similar device. The AC is aligned accurately to the axis of movement, sitting on a tripod at one end of the table. The 90° sits on the table, properly perpendicular to the AC axis. As the table is moved, any deviation from nominal horizontal position is easily measured.

This is the configuration used for laser interferometry, but it can be applied equally well to AC operations.
In fact, looking over the accessories available for the laser interferometer, I see only 90° mirrors, no planar mirrors.

- Leigh
 
That's one way to accomplish the task. The downside is that it requires a mirror blank with parallel surfaces.

The most common method I've encountered, and the one shown in the autocollimator (AC) instruction manuals, is to use a mirror mounted in a fixture.
The fixture can come in many different forms. The specifics don't matter.

The critical factor is that the reference surface (think picture frame) is accurately perpendicular to the base of the fixture.
Again, as I wrote in my first post, "depending on how you plan to use the mirror." The measurement you describe is one that would be used for, say, verifying the flatness of a surface plate. For that, the mirror indeed does need to be perpendicular to the plate. That is the "critical factor" for this particular application. I also have such mirrors and fixtures for use with my autocollimator.

However, if you wanted to verify that a 90-deg. angle-plate mounted on that surface plate really is 90.0000-deg., a mirror blank with parallel surfaces mounted to that angle-plate would be the way to do it. Whether or not it is shown in the laser interferometry manual you are looking at (which likely also shows the accessories bolted to an optical table, hence dictating the perpendicular configuration), apparently there was enough of a market for such "parallel" mirrors for use with autocollimators and machine tools that K&E sold them with magnets on the back.

Also, I wouldn't characterize parallel surfaces on a mirror blank as a "downside." It's just a consequence of a mirror used for this purpose. Back to addressing the OP: the type(s) of mirrors you need for use with your autocollimator depends on the use(s) intended for that autocollimator.
 
millermachine --

Don't forget to consider mirror thickness when selecting an autocollimation mirror, in addition to its planarity and metalization. For most "machine shop" applications of an autocollimator, I suggest a mirror of 2 to 3 inch diameter, at least 1/2 inch thick, flat within 1/4 wavelength of green light (flatter is better), and with a silicon monoxide overcoating on aluminum ("enhanced aluminum" is better) metalization. The type of "glass" isn't especially important, borosilicate is good, as is fused quartz.

Actually, the mirror doesn't need to be made of glass. Hilger & Watts mirrors are often steel, "diamond turned" aluminum mirrors are becoming somewhat common, and Starrett's Webber Gage Block Division makes superb autocollimation mirrors of chromium carbide.

Needless to say, it's vitally important that autocollimation mirrors not be strained by their mounting. If mounted mechanically, the mount-to-mirror interface should be as close to kinematic as practical, as should adhesive mountings. I'll point you toward an earlier thread discussing these issues: http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/metrology/autocollimation-light-source-mount-211941/

In passing, I'll mention that the K+E magnet-backed parallel mirror, catalog numbers 71-6202, was described in the K+E catalog thusly: "A magnet back mirror is used to check the perpendicularity of any flat surface to a line of sight by means of auto-reflection or autocollimation. The mirror has a circular front surface 2 1/2 inch diameter. Its reflecting surface is flat to within 1/4 wave length of light over any area not greater than 50 mm diameter. A single magnet is cemented to the back of the mirror. Its contact surface is ground parallel to the mirror surface within 3 seconds of arc."

The K+E 71-6204 was similar but at 4 inch diameter was larger, and had three bonded-on magnets ground parallel to the mirror surface with 3 arcseconds.

John
 
the K+E magnet-backed parallel mirror, catalog numbers 71-6202, ... has a circular front surface 2 1/2 inch diameter.... Its contact surface is ground parallel to the mirror surface within 3 seconds of arc."
This is the K&E mirror I mentioned owning in a previous post. Continuing on the subject of "parallel mirrors," several times I've used a very inexpensive type of precision mirror for certain applications with my autocollimator. Standard 3"-dia. Si wafers are 0.5 mm (0.0197") thick and have highly polished front surfaces. Even though the reflectivity of Si is only ~40%, I haven't found that to be a limitation with my autocollimator when I've used these wafers. I measured a number of points on the surface of one wafer from a box of them and found the variation in thickness no more than 0.0005" (manufacturers typically specify an allowed thickness variation of no more than 0.001" for wafers of this size). Taking the upper limit, and the worst case of a 0.001" slope across the 3" wafer, that's a parallelism error of only 0.02 arc-sec.

Wafers this small haven't been used in production for 20 years, so you may have to look a bit to find some. But, when you do, they will be -- or should be -- very cheap. I just looked at eBay and you can get 8" wafers for ~$8. If you're careful you can easily break one of those into the equivalent of four 4" mirrors (they won't be round, but they don't have to be). "Front surface" autocollimator mirrors with parallelism of 0.02 arcsec. for $2 ea. -- what a bargain. If you need to position a mirror in a location where it might be damaged or destroyed, a Si wafer could be the solution for you, as it has been for me.
 
It may be time to check your calculator battery. Arctangent (0.001 inch / 3 inch) is a lot closer to 0.02 degree than you're thinking it is.
Good catch. But, it's not my battery, it's my finger. I must not have pushed the '2ndF' button hard enough, so I got tan instead of arctan. So, make that ~60 arcsec worst-case for the wafer, which is still pretty good (not quite as good as 0.02, I concede...).

Corrolary to 'measure twice, cut once' is 'calculate twice, post once'.
 
Hi thanks for all the input. Their is allot of information for me to take in. One of the questions ask was for what purpose was the mirror going to be used for. Well I want it for rebuilding and inspecting machines. It will go well with my other rebuilding tools. I have never used one but have the instruction handbook for it and a nice surface plate to try it out on. So any way I bought this Hilger Watts Autocollimator and polygon. Everything looks to be in perfect condition. I put a plain mirror in front of the autocollimator to see if it works and it does. I want to get a good mirror to check it with before I spend allot of money finding all the correct mirrors for the unit. The laser mirrors where available, but I dont have answers to all the questions posted. So I am not going to try and use them. But will find a suiteable mirror for testing.I do not see where I will be using the polygon so at some point I will probably trade it off for more accessories. Thanks for all the help I have allot of research to do.
Brian miller
 

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