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Qualifying inside Rads?

Ox

Diamond
Joined
Aug 27, 2002
Location
Northwest Ohio
How would you go about qualifying that the inside rad of a bushing was any particular size?

And I'm wondering about something beyond stepped rad guages.



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Think Snow Eh!
Ox
 
I assume it's a corner rad at bottom of bore else just measure with the usual.
Cast it with cerro base or low melting temp nonshrinking metal, measure on comparator. If it's a true fillet, it would be possible to use a plug gage, measure the space from bottom to the plug, and through apprpriate mathematical wizardry determine rad.
 
That looks like it might werk for some parts, but I think I'll pass for a 10mm through hole.

I'm wondering if those lazer scanners are the most able to make regular checks for something like this?


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Think Snow Eh!
Ox
 
I might not be clear on the app... Is this a through hole or a bottom corner radius in a blind hole bushing? If the latter, then CMM, laser, or even probing on a mill would work. Even the homemade/DIY ones should be able to handle something like that.
 
For occasional checks I'd use reprorubber quicksetting putty and a optical comparator.

A laser scanner won't help, the laser spot is too big.
A cmm will need lots of points in the rad to give you a good number.
A contour tracer works nice but they are not cheap.

I've built structured light machine vision systems to do this but you have to have absurd volumes.

Is the concern rad shape/size or position?
Ass-u-ming that this is bigger than 10 pc runs you may be able to control this with simple hard gauges. A point off each wall and one in the middle of the rad may give you the info you need.
Bob
 
Why pass on a 10mm hole?
Hello Gordon,

Unless I am completely missing something, I don't see how it would be possible to stuff that into a 10mm hole and check an inside corner radius at the bottom of the bore.

The radius would also have to be larger than the flat on the end of the "probe".

Am I misunderstanding it's use?

Thanks!
 
Unless I am completely missing something, I don't see how it would be possible to stuff that into a 10mm hole and check an inside corner radius at the bottom of the bore.

I might not be clear on the app... Is this a through hole or a bottom corner radius in a blind hole bushing?

I think maybe I'm the one that may not be understanding.... :o
What shape of bushings doo you guys generally make? :confused:


Why pass on a 10mm hole?
How would a laser scanner do what you want?

On a 10mm circle the three points of your setup would be on such different planes that it would be nuts. Even if you dropped one and went with two points - it's still partly around the corner...

And it will not tell me if it is the tool is worn or chipped and producing a funky geometry.

I don't know the first thing about lasers. I am a machinist, not an electronics junkie. But they keep advertising about the abilities of these new laser scanners and how increadibly accurate they are.
???



For occasional checks I'd use reprorubber quicksetting putty and a optical comparator.

A laser scanner won't help, the laser spot is too big.

????




Is the concern rad shape/size or position?
Ass-u-ming that this is bigger than 10 pc runs you may be able to control this with simple hard gauges. A point off each wall and one in the middle of the rad may give you the info you need.
Bob


Shape/size/location is a mess really as I am making the coners all to print - while leaving grind stock inside and out. So I have a tapered bore for .030 where I am getting to final bore size, and then creating the rad, and then facing the part on a slight angle 'till it run out in an opposite slight angle from the OD tool that made the same taper/rad/face routine on the outside.

So the best I am able to doo currently is to check the ID of the rad with the tips of a set of calipers to be close to after grind dimmenssions. I forget the actual dimm, but lets say .014 to .020" rad (?) I check size with the calipers to make approximate D with finish grind, while qualifying that the rad is good by spinning it on the end of my finger.

For eny other customer - I am sure that what I have done so far would be just fine. But this is Big 3 / small volume (for now) / military. When I quoted - I knew it was military. I did NOT know that Big3 was involved. No-body has asked me to qualify the rads yet, but I am trying to figger out what it will take to be able to doo that.

The 10 yr projection has some awfully ... ambitious ... (:rolleyes5:) volumes, but for now it is looking like a cpl thou a month maybe? These are really cheap and simple bushings, that can git to be very expensive if all the T's need dotted and I's all need crossed.


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Think Snow Eh!
Ox
 
To measure a concave radius I'd just measure the tool making the radius.The same would apply to a chamfer at the bottom of a blind hole - measure the tool being used.

Am I making sense? :)

OK, now I see where the conflict is.

I have to reverse engineer parts quite often so I don't have a tool to measure!

That's why I couldn't get a grip on how you would measure a radius at the base of a smaller bore using that. :nutter:

I wasn't completely clear on what Ox was trying to measure either, or the quantity, but bushings can have steps in them with concave radii, which was what I was thinking he was referring to.

Thanks!
 
For eny other customer - I am sure that what I have done so far would be just fine. But this is Big 3 / small volume (for now) / military. When I quoted - I knew it was military. I did NOT know that Big3 was involved.

Ouch,
Your customer will most likely have something like this.
Catalogue - Contracer - MITUTOYO - (Version JPG)

Really neat at this stuff but big bucks and they don't show up on ebay very often. Also not very fast if you want to see if a tool has chipped while running production.

Verifying initial setup and check every couple of hours I'd use reprorubber.
Casts in 5 minutes, slice in half and put it on a 50X comparator. Simple and dirt cheap.

For continuous high volume monitoring I'd set up a video microscope with a light stripe projected at 45 degrees. You could print a simple overlay on a laser printer and use it to check the parts.

The attached sample uses a simple laser line projected at 45 degrees to show 3-D info. This sample is measuring a molded chipbreakers dimensions. Ignore the numbers, you have to do some math on the calculator to turn them into real world coordinates.

You need known masters to calibrate/setup a system like this but it will show you a chipped tool real fast.
At the size you need a projected white light stripe will work better than the cheapo laser used here.

It would take a day to rig up a fixed setup like this and about a grand or two in parts (camera, lens, and light source) so it's not real effective at 1000 pc runs.
Bob
 

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Repro rubbber works okay for verification. Ox why not just cut one of those suckers in half? (your bushing not the rubber). I know it doesn't tell you about tool failure as your working, but if all the other dimensions are there and you did the F.A.I. then theoretically it should be right, right? Maybe set some time aside for physically checking the tool as the machine runs. Or sometimes it has been worth saying "screw it" and indexing corners for every part. Just an idea other than spending a shit load of money. Though Gordon's hoodiddy looks like it will do the job.

R
 
I once did a 100% inspection on a box of matches. They all lit first time. Didn't know what to do with the burnt matches though :)
Ahh, not as ignorant sounding if you need 100,000 boxes of good matches to sell. :)


Ox, how much would you be willing to spend and how accurately do you want to measure?
I suppose this really is the last question to ask then.

PS Gordon if the wad-ya-say had a name I wouldn't have to give it one, can't have things floating around with no names :willy_nilly:. It's like a temporary until it gets a real one. :D
 
Repro rubbber works okay for verification. Ox why not just cut one of those suckers in half? (your bushing not the rubber).

OK - now it's cut in half ... now what?

What does that doo for me?



Ox, how much would you be willing to spend and how accurately do you want to measure?



Not much at all. Currently the parts pay like they are simple bushings. There is no $ in these at all at this point.

This is a fact gathering mission, so that I have some info to lean on to if/when the time comes to apply.


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Think Snow Eh!
Ox
 
apart from telling us how much you'd be willing to offer

I still don't know




and how accurate you want to measure

And I'm wondering about something beyond stepped rad guages.

Think Snow Eh!
Ox





what kind of radius size are we dealing with and how big is the bore the radius is on?

Didn't know that was exactly relivent. I was expecting a probe type unit like has been posted. The bore is plenty big for a single point jobbie to git far enough into the hole to read the corner rad. And I still don't know that the size of the rad is relivent? If it was .005 or .050 - does it change some-ones answer? If so - holler.

I had already said that the through hole was 10mm before you posted your hoodiddy. And I still don't think that would werk any better - and IMO not as good as hard rad guages.
Bet I'd get some sarcastic replies if I wrote, "I want to measure something. What should I use"?

I would think so too. But I filled in the fields that I thought were relivent.


It seems to me that the biggest cornfusion in this here thread has been the shape [of the inside] of a bushing. And I still don't think that I needed to spend time on that layout more than the original post - but it seems that I was wrong.

My bad? :confused:



Oooo...kay,
I think we are making the silly assumption that you have an optical comparator with a radius chart. Oops.
Bob


I was thinking shaddows.

I guess with surface illumination that could be done.

Otherwise?



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Think Snow Eh!
Ox
 
OK - now it's cut in half ... now what?

What does that doo for me?

and IMO not as good as hard rad guages.

I really must be picturing this incorrectly, if that is the case my apologies. But if the thing is in half, stick one of your hard gages up to the radius and verify?? :confused:

Robert
 
It seems to me that the biggest cornfusion in this here thread has been the shape [of the inside] of a bushing. And I still don't think that I needed to spend time on that layout more than the original post - but it seems that I was wrong.

My bad? :confused:

Already too much info...

How 'bout "Qualifying a convex radius" as the topic, eh!:)

Another suggestion from the dark side since one of your concerns is tool chipping...

Since there is no mention of tolerance, raduis size, etc., I'd step up to my OD grinder and grind a plug to fit the bushing ID and radius. A light smear of Bearing Blue on the bushing radius, insert the "plug gauge" twist it 180° and look at the contact. If the contact suddenly changes, then go to step two and mould it and view it on the comparator to see what's going on, or inspect the tool.

If needed, you could check a number of things with the plug such as bore size, radius, and face contact.
 








 
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