10EE 1961 original 5hp/gearbox.Is there a plug and play drive available?
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    Default 10EE 1961 original 5hp/gearbox.Is there a plug and play drive available?

    I haven't been on this forum for a looong time.
    Has any manufacturer actually come up with a solid state,off the shelf,documented,kit yet?
    Last time I looked, about 5 years, ago there were a few individuals at the development stage.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JIMMY M View Post
    about 5 years, ago the "theorists" were either still in the development/arguing stage.
    I would not look for that to change. Somehow people really believe that the 60+ year old vacuum tubes and DC motors will be noticeably better/smoother/higher torque/more efficient/more better than a modern drive that would actually work. Let alone an AC motor and drive as used successfully on every CNC machine since the mid 1980s.

    I'd rip out the motor and go AC an VFD. Or, buy a modern solid state drive from Emerson/Control Technique, or whoever, and install it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ewlsey View Post
    I would not look for that to change. Somehow people really believe that the 60+ year old vacuum tubes and DC motors will be noticeably better/smoother/higher torque/more efficient/more better than a modern drive that would actually work. Let alone an AC motor and drive as used successfully on every CNC machine since the mid 1980s.

    I'd rip out the motor and go AC an VFD. Or, buy a modern solid state drive from Emerson/Control Technique, or whoever, and install it.
    You will notice that I polished up my original question.
    Yes that is what I need a manufacturer's name who has ACTUALLY installed and made it run sucessfuly.
    My 1961 10ee has the original motor/gearbox and contactors.The solid state drive originally installed has died.Since I have no information or diagrams from this company I have decided to install something more current which works better.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JIMMY M View Post
    I have decided to install something more current which works better.
    Ohhjhh, Now you've done it. Opened up Pandora's Box...

    Let the arguments begin...




    Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk

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    Quote Originally Posted by JIMMY M View Post
    You will notice that I polished up my original question.
    Yes that is what I need a manufacturer's name who has ACTUALLY installed and made it run sucessfuly.
    My 1961 10ee has the original motor/gearbox and contactors.The solid state drive originally installed has died.Since I have no information or diagrams from this company I have decided to install something more current which works better.
    A picture of the current drive would be useful to the members here to identify what you have. I have taken a tube drive and converted it to solid state and I am well pleased with it. I did use the original transformer to achieve the voltage necessary to get the motor up to speed. Mine is also a 1960 year model.
    Here is a Thread that describes how to convert it to solid state Parker drive in a 1961 10EE

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    Monarch uses a 7 1/2 HP with a VFD now in their machines.

    Call and talk to Scott.

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    +1 on the AC motor and VFD. Although mine is still limping on the original 5hp DC motor and Beel drive (not really compatible, my 10EE is 1980, sorta "too new" for the drive), I do have an inverter duty 5hp AC motor to put in and a Durapulse GS3 vectorless AC drive to put in. Hopefully this winter I'll get around to it now that I have a little more room. So, I can't attest personally to using the AC drive (yet) but I've seen many videos and write-ups of what appear to be successful AC swaps, with no real complaints. IIRC, the guy who had the 30" 10EE WRECK write up I believe had 2 10EE's side by side, one with original DC and one that had been converted to AC, and claimed there was no noticeable difference in performance. From what I recall...

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    Quote Originally Posted by pianoman8t8 View Post
    IIRC, the guy who had the 30" 10EE WRECK write up I believe had 2 10EE's side by side, one with original DC and one that had been converted to AC, and claimed there was no noticeable difference in performance. From what I recall...
    Read it again. Harry didn't use a boost transformer for the DC drive. At 180 VDC out instead of 260 VDC, he was running it at about 60 percent of normal performance, and he said so. Tried to boost it, blew the used drive he was messing with, quit and did a VFD.

    Surely it compared well. With a cripple.

    Those spurious "VFD is just as good" claims gave been around for Donkey's Years.

    Why "spurious"?

    Too few folks bother to provide the voltage the Monarch DC motors used. Nominal 230 VDC on the nameplate, actual around 260 VDC in real life. They'll STAND 300 VDC armature and 140 VDC field (greater torque, low and slow, faster stopping and reversing.) .

    Bump a 1Q Beel/BICL D510 to 300-340 VAC input to get 260 VDC out, fry the SCR bridge on the spikes. It has a peak rating not much above the SSD's all-day, every-day working rating.

    What JFW? DC Drives that SHIPPED ready for 480 VAC in, 380 VDC out. As used in Europe.

    Eurotherm/Parker-SSD 514C-16 for 3 HP, stretched at 5 HP, where a 514C-32 is 'proper', but but works.

    Use full-isolation boost transformers to 320-350 VAC input side, 20 Milli-not-micro Henry Choke, output side. Do NOT omit either one.

    It is all right there in the SSD manual.

    IF... you have genuine 3-Phase power? Utility mains or a stout Phase-Perfect?
    THEN you can have near-as-dammit "Plug and Play" with a 3-Phase-only DC Drive.
    - No boost transformer needed.
    - Many more drives available.
    - Even the ripple filter is not essential.

    You want to MATCH that with a VFD?

    First you need 8 poles and 7.5 HP or six poles and 10 HP. And a good VFD, not an El Cheapo.

    Then you have the machining to do to mate the gearbox, 'coz a VFD will STILL NEED it.

    SSD-Drive + ripple filter choke, and DC motor, not so much.

    Why do they no longer ship NEW DC motored machine-tools in general?

    Conventional DC motors of the type Monarch once used are 11 or 12 THOUSAND USD, new.

    Servos can be had for less money. There are five or so 10EE out there that have been converted to servos, too.

    That's righteous enough.
    Last edited by Monarchist; 09-12-2017 at 04:38 AM.

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    Monarchist, what would the cost be to equip the machine with a proper DC drive as you explained above?

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    Quote Originally Posted by pianoman8t8 View Post
    Monarchist, what would the cost be to equip the machine with a proper DC drive as you explained above?
    5 HP.. everettengr got the same 16 AMP-nominal Parker SSD-514C-16 I use on my 3 HP 10EE's to work. It does have a 6 HP thermal rating, no fans, and is conservatively rated.

    We bumped the input to around 320 VAC, set for max 16A current, plus activated the 150% overload for 90 seconds. That was 'enough' to keep his 5 HP 18+FLA GE KinaMatic 5 HP motor sweet. A lathe with only a max 20" centre-to-centre doesn't make loooong cuts, after all.



    We both used the smaller Parker-SSD 507's Armature output for Field Current Supply.

    There is NO need for ANY of the original wiring, switches, relays, or contactors on the 10EE.. unless one has ELSR and wants to keep it.

    The SSD 514C is commonly found used. 2 of 3 I bought used were fine. One had a glitch. So, too the SSD 507 (506 and 509 will also work - the field doesn't use that much current).

    The large "hollow state" transformer worked by adding a smaller transformer, primaries in parallel, secondaries in series.

    I use a multiple-transformer rig, as I wanted many taps 277 to 349 VAC, whilst experimenting.

    Two brand-new Hammond ripple-filters were bought, one for each of us. I also had a now-rare Lenze "swinging" choke for the first of my ones.


    New units are still available for all but the Lenze.

    You can research current prices for whatever "start date" you choose to begin acquiring the goods. Most of mine were bought 4 years ago, so prices would be stale.

    The cited thread is more current;

    Parker/Eurotherm 514C/507 4Q SSD DC Retrofit into 1961 10EE Modular

    ...and is also a closer match to your own 10EE, both of mine being 3 HP former MG ones, 1942 and 1944.

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    Monarchist, this is another valid point of sticking with DC vs swapping to AC. Knowledge of DC systems. AC is much simpler in terms of components and implementation. Yes, a tiny bit of custom fitting is required, but that's much easier to understand and accomplish than the pages-long write-up you provided a link for. Just another point of view to consider when advising to stay with the original DC setup: some people don't have the desire to implement something as complicated as that, and find all the components needed. Myself included. On the other hand, that was a very good write-up in that link. But it's still a bit much for me to try to implement. 5hp AC vs DC, would you have concerns about the possibility of stalling the machine with the AC + VFD setup?

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    Quote Originally Posted by pianoman8t8 View Post
    Monarchist, this is another valid point of sticking with DC vs swapping to AC. Knowledge of DC systems. AC is much simpler in terms of components and implementation. Yes, a tiny bit of custom fitting is required, but that's much easier to understand and accomplish than the pages-long write-up you provided a link for. Just another point of view to consider when advising to stay with the original DC setup: some people don't have the desire to implement something as complicated as that, and find all the components needed. Myself included. On the other hand, that was a very good write-up in that link. But it's still a bit much for me to try to implement. 5hp AC vs DC, would you have concerns about the possibility of stalling the machine with the AC + VFD setup?
    DC motors cannot slip. Move the load or die trying. Unless protective circuitry calls a halt.

    AC slips. Rather decent for speeds ABOVE "base" RPM. Progressively loses out to DC at base RPM and BELOW.

    Show me a "stock" AC motor with fractional RPM capability in direct-drive.

    Single-speed 3-P AC, "mechanical" ratios, I can like.

    It is the bleedin' VFD that are too complicated, fragile, costly, short-lived, and troublesome for me.

    VFD conversion threads are rife wth the simplicity of the machining work to adapt to the gearbox. Then the VFD has to be set-up. Sometimes simple. Sometimes not.

    Get a COMPLETE schematic - including what it inside every IC on the PCB - and you'll appreciate how very much simpler and near-as-dammit "bulletproof" Analog DC Drives really are compared to the 'out of sight' complexity of a VFD.

    Brushes? BFD.

    Typical 2,000 hour power-on life, 10EE no longer in 3-shift by 6+ day all-year "War time" production?

    One set of brushes could outlast ME!

    Mind - do as you see fit for your needs. "I got MINE!"

    The HBX-360-BC may yet get a Dee Cee motor...

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    I understand your points.
    I wonder if I could use the original DC motor in mine if, for some reason, I decided to take your advice and stick with DC. For me though, it's the seemingly complex setup that I don't feel comfortable doing. I have no problem with wiring in a VFD and motor swap. It's all the extra components, wiring them all together, as well as the ELSR, that has me concerned due to my own lack of ability and understanding in the DC area. I understand the lack of torque once you start getting below the base RPM on AC, that's a no-brainer. But how much torque do we really need? At the last place I worked, we had a couple smaller manual lathes that had VFD's on them. Granted they were geared head, so you really had to TRY to get an incorrect gearing and whatnot, but we never had any problems with the drives being faulty (also Durapulse). They were in place about 5+yrs before I started there, and I was there for about 5 yrs when I left 4yrs ago. They're still going strong. Considering the back-gear on the 10EE, that would really be able to allow the AC motor's rpms to get up there a good ways. If I ever needed to turn something that big and slow and still require tons of torque, I'd just throw it in a larger lathe (15" Colchester, for example). Plus, I wouldn't feel great about putting that much force on the tiny D3 spindle.

    In any case, I'll have to see about getting a photo of the nameplate on my DC motor and see what your thoughts are on it. I'll just send a PM on that one, I feel like I'm hijacking a thread here.

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    Actually, I'll just throw the name plate photo out there for everyone to see, for future reference on the forum in general. At least it'll be viewable to the public at that point.
    20140209_121039.jpg

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    Quote Originally Posted by pianoman8t8 View Post
    Actually, I'll just throw the name plate photo out there for everyone to see, for future reference on the forum in general. At least it'll be viewable to the public at that point.
    20140209_121039.jpg
    Thank you for that. We do not have a surplus of the nameplate info off Louis-Allis (or even GE KinaMatic.. or Reliance..) 5 HP DC motors.

    That said, even on the copy you emailed me, I cannot read much of the right side. Base RPM, for example.

    Can you get a shot that enhances that side?

    Or just read and list all the info as text?

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    Yup, I'll try to get a clearer shot when I get home. Had a tough time initially getting that one a couple years ago because it's so shiny LOL. Looks like 1150/3450 though. Will verify tonight if I remember to.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pianoman8t8 View Post
    Yup, I'll try to get a clearer shot when I get home. Had a tough time initially getting that one a couple years ago because it's so shiny LOL. Looks like 1150/3450 though. Will verify tonight if I remember to.
    Lower line seems to run off the plate - or maybe it is curvature. Looks like "BALANCED FOR 5000 RPM". Which would be about right for the do-not-exceed RPM of that sort of DC motor.

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    Appears to say BALANCED FOR 0003

    I'm assuming the 0003 would be a unit of balance measurement (dram inches, for example) instead of RPM.
    Hopefully these have a little more clarity.

    2017-09-12-22.01.30.jpg
    2017-09-12-22.01.59.jpg
    2017-09-12-22.02.59.jpg
    2017-09-12-22.03.22.jpg

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    Quote Originally Posted by pianoman8t8 View Post
    Appears to say BALANCED FOR 0003

    I'm assuming the 0003 would be a unit of balance measurement (dram inches, for example) instead of RPM.
    Hopefully these have a little more clarity.

    2017-09-12-22.01.30.jpg
    2017-09-12-22.01.59.jpg
    2017-09-12-22.02.59.jpg
    2017-09-12-22.03.22.jpg
    Spent 14 hours on a Case mini-trackhoe today, so it may be a while before I get back to this...


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