10EE - The Dreaded Oil Line Tubing - Upgrades? Has the task gotten any better?

As usual, I have searched but not come up with good enough information so am asking here.

I am waiting for the opportunity to have the bed ground right now and think it might be a good time to rip the apron apart as well as get the saddle ready for Moglice application. Both tasks mean addressing the oil system. < shudder >

So, after trying to search and read what other intrepid souls have done before me I notice that most of this info is now very, very old and possibly very outdated. What is the accepted best choice these days? Copper? Steel? What about Plastic lines? ( I believe they degrade with oil contact, but am not up to speed on them so think to ask. )

What about Stainless? It is no secret here on PM that I am a big fan of Stainless. From fasteners to tooling, it is one of my "go to" materials for longevity and appealing characteristics. So what about oil tubing in the 10EE? McMaster has it in 3/32" and 5/32", and it is even available in many differing wall thicknesses. ( .005", .010", .015", .020", .028" & .035" ) I am thinking that .015" ( or .010" ) might work well for some of the tighter, restrictive places, as well as make the duties of bending it a little easier than thick walled.

And what about other upgrades or modifications? There seems to be some lack of clarity on what eras/models oil the cross slide directly and which do not. Can it easily be made to do so after the fact, effectively upgrading the system?

And what of the manifold under the saddle? Has anyone come up with a decent way to remove as well as replace and bed them again?

Has anyone found reason to change the meters to other sizes, or found them to more useful? What about modifying the frequency by manner of the cam? Has anyone looked at adding some manner of manual actuation not requiring carriage traverse?

Thanks for any insights and experiences.

Stainless would be awesome.....but how tight can you bend it. The whole process of replacing those lines, as I remember was a colossal PITA. Going thru a hole in the casting,then a tight bend and thru another hole. I would have loved to use plastic but the bends were too tight. Copper seemed to be the best choice. Electronic potting epoxy is a good replacement. I found some German roofing sealant (white) that worked great, but can't remember the brand. The original used molten sulfur.

One issue with plastic could be line flex. The pump only pumps a small amount of oil each stroke, but can develop a bit of pressure depending on how much pressure the bijur fittings need to operate. If they need some pressure to operate and the plastic hose pulsates with each stroke, the amount it expands means less oil going through the metering units. I replaced mine with copper. It is not pretty, it is a bastard of a job, but it is doable. I also replaced every metering unit.

Thinner wall sounds really great until you try to bend it! Thin wall work hardens instantly and with the radii that you are working with it is much better to use thicker wall.
Without going into detail, I have to ask the question "How old are you?". These lathes (and yours is a round dial) have been around longer than you have, have withstood a lot of abuse, and the copper lines have worked well. Short of building your own lathe from the ground up, beginning with mining the ore, I would replace with what came off. Their design has stood the test of time.

Lee (the saw guy)

When I redid the oil lines on mine I went with copper as it was easy to bend in the tight spaces. You can get a tubing bender from dubro That works well in the manifold area.(they are around $10). Get a coil of soft copper buy extra for the unexpected kink. If you need ferrules I have enough left over from doing mine to do yours. If the copper doesn't bend easily you can heat it and cool it rapidly and it will further soften. I used Bondo to rebed the lines. Make sure everything fits before bondoing the inside of the apron. Bob

You're probably going to need compression ferrules, metering units and other Bijur bits. I would get the tubing from your friendly neighborhood Bijur dealer as well.

Cal

Thank you for all the response, Gentlemen. Comments interspersed.

daryl bane said:

Stainless would be awesome.....but how tight can you bend it. The whole process of replacing those lines, as I remember was a colossal PITA. Going thru a hole in the casting,then a tight bend and thru another hole. I would have loved to use plastic but the bends were too tight. Copper seemed to be the best choice. Electronic potting epoxy is a good replacement. I found some German roofing sealant (white) that worked great, but can't remember the brand. The original used molten sulfur.

Click to expand...

I am not _overly_ concerned with the bend radii. I'm pretty comfortable with tubing bending and have several benders of varying sizing on hand. ( from .062" - 1.500" ) ( small, hand type through air over hydraulic floor bender ) The main thing I am concerned about is working with the stuff within the confines of the castings. From your response I have to ask - Is that the sort of job this is? Where the bends cannot be accomplished ahead of time and fished through? As in, one is forced to do the bends with the tubing partially installed? That, I can see sucking in large amounts. Interesting ideas on the potting media. Thanks.

RC99 said:

One issue with plastic could be line flex. The pump only pumps a small amount of oil each stroke, but can develop a bit of pressure depending on how much pressure the bijur fittings need to operate. If they need some pressure to operate and the plastic hose pulsates with each stroke, the amount it expands means less oil going through the metering units. I replaced mine with copper. It is not pretty, it is a bastard of a job, but it is doable. I also replaced every metering unit.

Click to expand...

I have used some of the stuff for brake and clutch lines on motorcycles, so I'm not overly concerned about flexing from pressure.

oldster said:

Thinner wall sounds really great until you try to bend it! Thin wall work hardens instantly and with the radii that you are working with it is much better to use thicker wall. Without going into detail, I have to ask the question "How old are you?". These lathes (and yours is a round dial) have been around longer than you have, have withstood a lot of abuse, and the copper lines have worked well. Short of building your own lathe from the ground up, beginning with mining the ore, I would replace with what came off. Their design has stood the test of time. Lee (the saw guy)

Click to expand...

Haha! It's not like that, Lee. But I appreciate where you're coming from. This is more a standard exercise for me. If I am forced to address something, it is a natural process for me to ask that as long as I have to "go in", if it could stand some manner of improvement. Speaking for only myself, it is along the lines of "Anything worth doing is worth doing well." I could likely make do with pasta noodles for tubing, but I may as well make sure that it lasts for the next owner of the machine, too.

To be fair, it does not always work out that way. Some times, it is just as you point out. And the identical material or part gets installed. But I do ask the question.

vettebob said:

When I redid the oil lines on mine I went with copper as it was easy to bend in the tight spaces. You can get a tubing bender from dubro That works well in the manifold area.(they are around $10). Get a coil of soft copper buy extra for the unexpected kink. If you need ferrules I have enough left over from doing mine to do yours. If the copper doesn't bend easily you can heat it and cool it rapidly and it will further soften. I used Bondo to rebed the lines. Make sure everything fits before bondoing the inside of the apron. Bob

Click to expand...

Thanks, Bob. Good info and I like the bondo idea!

Cal Haines said:

You're probably going to need compression ferrules, metering units and other Bijur bits. I would get the tubing from your friendly neighborhood Bijur dealer as well.
Cal

Click to expand...

Hi Cal! Yes, I fully intend to replace all the meters, as well. Thanks for the recommendation. I'll likely call Bijur next week to see what's what and where.

So, from the above we get the basic thrust and general consensus that people like Copper tubing to go with new ferrules and meters, with a few options on how to pot the lines back in.

Thanks all. I appreciate the input and insights of your experience.

Pre bending the tubes only works part of the time. Some of the tubes have to be done on the apron. Bob

I just finished replacing the metering units on my new to me T handle round dial from 6/1941.
Tried a magnet on the lines, non magnetic. Found out they are 5/32" brass, that has hardened till it is like a spring.
Took some work to get it apart without damaging anything.

Ready for install.

You can still see where a previous repair heated them up so they could be bent easier.

Bill

hitandmiss said:

I just finished replacing the metering units on my new to me T handle round dial from 6/1941.
Tried a magnet on the lines, non magnetic. Found out they are 5/32" brass, that has hardened till it is like a spring.
Took some work to get it apart without damaging anything.
Ready for install.
View attachment 159519View attachment 159520
You can still see where a previous repair heated them up so they could be bent easier.
Bill

Click to expand...

Bill that is very nice work. Kudos, Sir. < golf clap >

On another note, have any of you industrial fellows put together of a complete list of what's what? I went to take a browse on the Bijur website and it was not exactly the epitome of easy to find what I need. I would like to be able to supply a complete list of what is needed and have it on hand before actually pulling the old ones out just to get part numbers if at all possible.

Thanks.

I found 4 #00's and 1 #1, most were plugged.
I put 2-FJB-1's to lube the bed, 2 FJB-0's to lube the cross slide ways.
There was 1 #00 that seemed to be working, so I left it to lube the cross slide screw bearings, I haven't got it primed yet, so I may need to put a new one in there too.

Mine never had the lube line in the apron to lube one feed clutch.

Since the pump works very well and the apron is clean, I'm not adding the line.

First, look over what you have, and what is missing or damaged. I can help with Bijur P/n's if needed.

Do you have both tubing sizes? or just 5/32"?

Bill

FWIW, I purchased metering units from Monarch a number of yeas ago when I redid my lube system. I can't recall which one or what size it was but my 1952 10EE was originally built with one size for a certain saddle feed line that Monarch had updated their recommendations to use a larger size for that particular metering unit. I posted this info years ago here but can't find it quickly right now.

I suggest you contact Monarch about their current recommended metering unit sizes for each line in the saddle and compare it to what you have installed. Also, at the time Monarch charged a good bit less than Bijur for the same part numbers.

I was fortunate, the original lines were copper plated steel and in great shape. The lathe had never seen water based coolant.

DaveE907 said:

FWIW, I purchased metering units from Monarch a number of yeas ago when I redid my lube system. I can't recall which one or what size it was but my 1952 10EE was originally built with one size for a certain saddle feed line that Monarch had updated their recommendations to use a larger size for that particular metering unit. I posted this info years ago here but can't find it quickly right now.

I suggest you contact Monarch about their current recommended metering unit sizes for each line in the saddle and compare it to what you have installed. Also, at the time Monarch charged a good bit less than Bijur for the same part numbers.

Click to expand...

+1

Beside any running changes or updates, ISTR other posts on PM supporting Monarch having favorable prices on Bijur goods ..AND .. being aware of cross-ref to newer Bijur numbering plan on any SKU that have gone obsolete, (as some have done), even for the same-capacity metering units.

Well worth 'supporting your local Sheriff' on this one, IMNSHO.

Bill

The tubing on my 11/1943 round-dial is copper plated steel. I'm sure other materials were used, particularly as related to war time availability.

The pressure at the saddle manifold is fairly low. Per Scott at Monarch, you should see 15 PSI at the test port on the manifold.

Cal

I think that the copper plated steel lines were standard issue on most machines.
My lines were rusted through on the Boeing unit due to coolant usage and lack of cleaning.
I'll take copper lines any day, vs anything else. They won't rust, and will outlast any of us.
And they are much easier to install than anything else. Bear in mind it's still not easy.
I think trying to use SS lines would be for the masochists, quite honestly...
I don't even know if they would work , due to the ferrule not digging in them.
As for the sulfur replacement I have been using Epoxy potty, but only as required, at the transition points.

Best regards,
WC-

Wildcattle said:

I don't even know if they would work , due to the ferrule not digging in them.

Click to expand...

They'll work. Stainless tubing is very popular for instrument lines in industrial applications.

Since my 10EE is already disassembled, should I just go ahead and replace all the metering units as a matter of course? From reading various threads about them, I have gotten the impression that this is something that should simply just be done.

I've got the saddle sitting upside-down here and nothing *looks* wrong (other than needing cleaning), but that says nothing about the insides of the metering units.

Alan

I didn't. I removed all the oil lines and un-blocked them before re-fitting. I also removed all the metering units and cleaned them thoroughly in solvent then I fitted them one at a time directly into the apron pump and worked it by hand to make sure there was flow. They might not work as effectively as new ones but then again they don't go from brand new to blocked in an instant so I figured that any in use on any lathe will be working to a degree or other but possibly not as good as a new one.

CowDriver said:

Since my 10EE is already disassembled, should I just go ahead and replace all the metering units as a matter of course? From reading various threads about them, I have gotten the impression that this is something that should simply just be done.

I've got the saddle sitting upside-down here and nothing *looks* wrong (other than needing cleaning), but that says nothing about the insides of the metering units.

Alan

Click to expand...

I was able to get mine all working without removing the apron or saddle, so in a sense I agree with Peter as to the 'if it ain't broke' approach.

That said - WHEN I open-up the apron I do plan to replace them all.

More of a 'hoping to never have to do ANY of this again' prevention / insurance move than any lack of faith in their proven durability 'so far'.

Bill

Speaking only for myself - Yes, I could very easily take them all apart and clean them as well as possible, but frankly they cost so little it is actually a savings for me to simply purchase new ones. Seriously. Besides, it is very cheap insurance. I am having the bed ground and Moglicing the saddle, so I would rather not gamble or short cut anything that might have even a remote chance of damaging that work.

At the advice of everyone here, I did ask Monarch for prices and updated recommendations on the meters. And as usual, the group consensus was 100% correct.

I have been meaning to say this for a while now - The people frequenting this particular sub-forum are among the most helpful and knowledgeable I have found. Period. Here, or anywhere else. So "thank you" to the participants, here. I appreciate the experience and knowledge so freely offered and shared.