10EE Drive Belt Issue

ktbceres · May 8, 2017

Hi,

I previously posted about some drive issues with my 10EE which thankfully are now resolved. My current issue concerns the drive belts. When I first got the lathe, the flat belt driving the gearbox was completely shredded. I first focused on getting the drive system working and left the belt issue till now. I ordered a new flat belt from Monarch and installed it. The issue I have is when I adjust the two v-belts to proper tension, the idler for the flat belt rubs against the V-belts. I called monarch and spoke with the tech and although courteous, he simply suggested that somewhere in this machines life either the motor was changed, the idlers are not original etc. I also thought the V-belts could be wrong/stretched but if you look at the pictures, its basically a straight line from the motor pulley to the spindle pulley (looking at it in the pics, on the right side). It almost seems as if the flat belt is too short not allowing the flat belt tension pulley to be pushed farther to the left to increase distance from the V-Belts. I have not tried to move the motor...is it possible that there is enough side to side adjustment with the motor mount?
This machine is a Square Dial made in 1966

thanks for any help!

Kevin

Monarchist · May 8, 2017

ktbceres said:
Hi,

I previously posted about some drive issues with my 10EE which thankfully are now resolved. My current issue concerns the drive belts. When I first got the lathe, the flat belt driving the gearbox was completely shredded. I first focused on getting the drive system working and left the belt issue till now. I ordered a new flat belt from Monarch and installed it. The issue I have is when I adjust the two v-belts to proper tension, the idler for the flat belt rubs against the V-belts. I called monarch and spoke with the tech and although courteous, he simply suggested that somewhere in this machines life either the motor was changed, the idlers are not original etc. I also thought the V-belts could be wrong/stretched but if you look at the pictures, its basically a straight line from the motor pulley to the spindle pulley (looking at it in the pics, on the right side). It almost seems as if the flat belt is too short not allowing the flat belt tension pulley to be pushed farther to the left to increase distance from the V-Belts. I have not tried to move the motor...is it possible that there is enough side to side adjustment with the motor mount?
This machine is a Square Dial made in 1966

thanks for any help!

Kevin

Looks to me as if your motor has been elevated on longer standoffs than it should have.

If you can lower that, your Vee belts will tighten-up and not need the idlers to go in as deep. You should then have the clearances needed.

Otherwise, order shorter "A" section Vee belts and peddle these ones.

In that instance, you might actually have to raise the motor a tad.

ktbceres · May 25, 2017

Any more suggestions?? The above suggestion, lowering the motor will actually make the geometry worse. The idler on the right side is barely touching the Vee belts, all the tension is coming from the idler on the left side. I think what needs to happen is the motor needs to move to the left or the flat belt needs to be a little longer.The vee belts on the right side are hitting the flat belt idler. I also included some photos of the lathe with its new paint job. I took a cover from the back of the apron which seemed to have the original color to an autobody paint supply place and had them scan the color and get the closest match to a car color. It matched a Mercedes paint code almost perfect so I went with it.

swatkins · May 25, 2017

In this picture the center of the motor shaft is 8.5 inches from the floor of the machine and 6.25 inches to the left of the right motor compartment wall. This is a 90's machine.

I also looked at the clearance behind the flat belt idler on two different machines, 52 and 90 something, there is enough clearance behind the flat belt idler for the belts to go behind the idler if needed.

bll230 · May 25, 2017

Why don't you get a multi-rib v belt at the auto parts store that is two inches longer and try that? It will enable you to move the flat belt idler to the left. I run them flat side in on my South Bend 9 and they are very smooth.

Toms Wheels · May 30, 2017

The drive belts are too long. Which is why the idler is so close to the flat belt idler.
You have a large pulley on the spindle so it is likely been a 2500rpm machine if that pulley is original. Do not trust what belts others are using as the mixing of pulley sizes is all over the board, as well as motor and gearbox dimensions.
Just get the next size shorter belt.

ktbceres · Jun 11, 2017

Thanks for the info! I'm traveling this week and will explore these suggestions as soon as I get back

John S01 · Jul 5, 2017

Take a look at these:
Monarch 1EE SPINDLE DRIVE BELT - YouTube
MONARCH 1EE Spindle Idler Pulley Repair - YouTube

The second one was posted a couple of weeks after the first, so I assume the first one wasn't successful.

John

ktbceres · Jul 12, 2017

Ok... So far the suggestions kinda miss whats happening. Take the V belts out of the equation for a minute. A straight edge placed on the right side of the spindle V pulley to the right side of the motor V pulley will show that the V belt will contact the flat belt idler when tensioned with the brand new flat belt I purchased from Monarch. The issue is one of two things....either the motor was moved to the left or the flat belt is too short. I do not believe the motor was moved because the backgear shift rod is perfectly vertical which leads me to believe the flat belt is too short which means the flat belt idler pulley does not move far enough to the left to clear the belt. Yesterday i was looking at several 10EEs at an older factory and was able to remove the covers on the same vintage machine as mine...low and behold the flat belt idler is way to the left compared to mine. In fact the flat belt makes a full 180 wrap around the upper pulley as tensioned by the idler. I asked monarch if there's two different belts and I purchased the wrong one...no, of course not! Second question was could the flat belt stretch enough after it breaks in to allow more adjustment of the idler...again answer was no. Has any one seen a similar issue? I looked at the two videos above and noticed that the large flat belt driven pulley on that machine appears much smaller in diameter than mine...That would certainly help my situation.

Monarchist · Jul 12, 2017

ktbceres said:
Ok... So far the suggestions kinda miss whats happening. Take the V belts out of the equation for a minute. A straight edge placed on the right side of the spindle V pulley to the right side of the motor V pulley will show that the V belt will contact the flat belt idler when tensioned with the brand new flat belt I purchased from Monarch. The issue is one of two things....either the motor was moved to the left or the flat belt is too short. I do not believe the motor was moved because the backgear shift rod is perfectly vertical which leads me to believe the flat belt is too short which means the flat belt idler pulley does not move far enough to the left to clear the belt. Yesterday i was looking at several 10EEs at an older factory and was able to remove the covers on the same vintage machine as mine...low and behold the flat belt idler is way to the left compared to mine. In fact the flat belt makes a full 180 wrap around the upper pulley as tensioned by the idler. I asked monarch if there's two different belts and I purchased the wrong one...no, of course not! Second question was could the flat belt stretch enough after it breaks in to allow more adjustment of the idler...again answer was no. Has any one seen a similar issue? I looked at the two videos above and noticed that the large flat belt driven pulley on that machine appears much smaller in diameter than mine...That would certainly help my situation.

Dead-cheap to fix, regardless of the "why". NASA or GSA involvement not required.

Get you a length of string - better-yet, plastic strapping waste off a recent 'incoming'.

Put the verdammt idler where you WANT it to sit for reasonable clearance.

MEASURE the running length it takes to work to that position.

At that point, you can either order a custom flat-belt (MMC has such), or just drop by the nearest auto-parts store and grab a sub twenty-dollah NAPA "serpentine" Micro-Vee/PolyVee belt that will work well-enough, EITHER as ribs on plain sheaves OR flat reverse backing side against plain.

I prefer ribs-in so the IDLER runs against flat backing. Mine is steel, but the smaller diameter means the lesser circumferential surface has to work much harder, so...

swatkins · Jul 13, 2017

ktbceres said:
Ok... I do not believe the motor was moved because the backgear shift rod is perfectly vertical

I would not put too much faith in the rod being vertical as from the factory.

Mine was also vertical and it was because the arm had slipped on the shaft.. Ended up chewing up some of the gears end

Monarchist · Jul 13, 2017

swatkins said:
I would not put too much faith in the rod being vertical as from the factory.

Mine was also vertical and it was because the arm had slipped on the shaft.. Ended up chewing up some of the gears end

ACK. That's probably WRONG here as well.

The rod is normally just enough OFF dead-vertical so it can swing in the proper direction AND NOT get locked-up and refuse to budge - or try to go the other way - when actuated.

bll230 · Jul 13, 2017

Monarchist hit it. Just to save time here is my post from above:

Why don't you get a multi-rib v belt at the auto parts store that is two inches longer and try that? It will enable you to move the flat belt idler to the left. I run them flat side in on my South Bend 9 and they are very smooth.

His point here is good, though, the SB doesn't have an idler. You'll have to decide if you want flat side to the pulleys or flat side to the idler. Run it both ways to see which sounds better.

ktbceres · Jul 13, 2017

Thanks all! I think I'll go the auto parts store belt. It just seems odd that this is an issue!!

Monarchist · Jul 13, 2017

ktbceres said:
Thanks all! I think I'll go the auto parts store belt. It just seems odd that this is an issue!!

Seems to me your final-drive motor was moved.

Not HARD to correct that. No shortage of folks here that have done more than a few "from scratch" riggings of all manner of motors and belts.

Changing the smaller belt is just faster. Probably cheaper as well, even with an already-paid-for flat belt.

Unless you move it to still use the same OEM belts, moving the motor could want two new "A" section Vee belts that cost more than one "serpentine" does.

Personally, I WOULD move the motor so I could use OEM belts, all locations.

You can always do that later, of course. Not as if it was a deep-space probe that is permanently leaving the building.

rke[pler · Jul 13, 2017

ktbceres said:
Thanks all! I think I'll go the auto parts store belt. It just seems odd that this is an issue!!

If you could post a decent image that showed the whole of the end of the lathe from motor to spindle someone might be able to spot something that doesn't look right.

ktbceres · Jul 26, 2017

I'll get that picture tonight and post it.

Thanks!!

ktbceres · Jul 27, 2017

Hi, So here are some pics of the drive end. Any observations would be very welcome! I also included a shot of the whole machine as I'm getting close to finishing up the project.

If you notice...I have the flat belt tensioner set where it has proper tension on the flat belt. You can see I installed a matched set of drive belts from Monarch. You should also be able to see that the flat belt tensioner is contacting the drive belts. That is the issue I'm trying to get to the bottom of! Thanks!!!

daryl bane · Jul 27, 2017

I will chime in for the sake of chiming in.. For giggles, what is the dia of your big flat belt pulley? Second, I will agree with Bill that the motor seems oh so bias to the left. Could the mounting holes in the motor plate be slotted? I looked at a few pics in the library and there is precious little room between the flat belt idler casting and drive belts in the best of times. I will look at mine tonight

ktbceres · Jul 27, 2017

Thanks for replying. I removed one of the nuts and washers on the motor plate and it looks like they were never removed...no slots and only one set of marks from the fasteners.

10EE Drive Belt Issue

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