Thread: 10ee electrical

"The MG is clearly wired for 440/480 volts."

On a machine wired for 230 volts, you may use the T4 terminal for the second "star point", the one associated with T1, T2 and T3 (the one associated with T7, T8 and T9, and would be T10, T11 and T12, is internal to the motor).

The T4 terminal was provided for two-phase machines, of which there are a few floating around in Philadelphia, Reading, Camden, Buffalo, Niagara Falls (both countries), and possibly also Toronto.

Originally Posted by peterh5322

"The MG is clearly wired for 440/480 volts."


On a machine wired for 230 volts, you may use the T4 terminal for the second "star point", the one associated with T1, T2 and T3 (the one associated with T7, T8 and T9, and would be T10, T11 and T12, is internal to the motor).

The T4 terminal was provided for two-phase machines, of which there are a few floating around in Philadelphia, Reading, Camden, Buffalo, Niagara Falls (both countries), and possibly also Toronto.

Would I be foolish to Take the contactor which is in the machine and replace it with a known good 220 v
http://i1177.photobucket.com/albums/...h/45b1ceae.jpg
This is part of the mg unit I bought from work. They changed to a vfd, and the toolie says no low torque but is good enough. This unit I saw run and used myself. Had no idea there was trouble with it. I guess maint was tired of replacing brushes, said one of the units kept "burning them up". I think the problem was with the exciter. So I do belive I have a good mg if there are problems with the one in my machine.
Back 2 wireing, I think I can get this done myself as long as I can get good direction, and I feel it's here.

"Would I be foolish to Take the contactor which is in the machine and replace it with a known good 220 v ..."

That starter is a Cutler-Hammer and is closer to a stock 10EE than the previous starter.

Looks to be an original stock MG piece. Having the option to revert to something known and documented using pieces in hand is certainly attractive if you can't figure out what's there now.

The good thing is the monkey business seems to be upstream of the MG. Switching and providing overload protected line power to supply the MG are the main functions in that compartment.

The route you suggest is viable, didn't know you had original type parts to replace the lashup shown in the previous photos.

Good iwill start there, a learning process I was told to avoid. Go slow go right!
I'll be back with more photos and updates.
To all, Thanks for you help
Al

Originally Posted by Alsuchy

Good iwill start there, a learning process I was told to avoid. Go slow go right!
I'll be back with more photos and updates.
To all, Thanks for you help
Al

Committed
http://i1177.photobucket.com/albums/...h/ca21e184.jpg

"Committed"

Yes, I would certainly say so.

Monarch, in their almost infinite wisdom, tried to make the machine as simple as possible, although the 10EE is arguably the most complex toolroom lathe yet implemented by anyone, anywhere.

Although there were models which were intended for unusual installations, such as two-phase and 550/575/600 volts, most examples are capable of 220/230/240 or 440/460/480 with minimal changes.

Some fundamental considerations prevail:

1) most examples have a "line voltage" "three-wire control station", meaning either 230 or 460, but not both,

2) most examples have 230/460 high power devices, although some of the low power devices, including the "three-wire control station", may be 230-only or 460-only,

3) most examples have a transformer to supply 5 volts to the green-colored M-G START/Control START lamp, although this lamp is actually 6.3 volts, and

4) some examples have a 230 to 115 or a 460 to 115 volt transformer to supply the work light accessory.

I have previously shown how a 230 machine may be simply and inexpensively converted to 460, or a 460 machine may be simply and inexpensively converted to 230.

This ...

Simple, Inexpensive "Universal" WiaD Voltage Conversions

... thread shows how this is done on a WiaD machine, but the very same concept applies to most other machines.

A 250 V-A control transformer is more than adequate to implement the changes described in the linked thread.

I have been able to pick up 250 to 500 V-A control transformers of the general type described for about $10 at various electronics swap meets.

The volume of the 10EE's main contactor housing (the rear of the headstock) is one of the limiting factors in installing such a control transformer.

Originally Posted by Alsuchy

Would I be foolish to Take the contactor which is in the machine and replace it with a known good 220 v
http://i1177.photobucket.com/albums/x350/alsuchy/monarch 10ee/monarch/45b1ceae.jpg
This is part of the mg unit I bought from work. ...They changed to a vfd, and the toolie says no low torque but is good enough. This unit I saw run and used myself. Had no idea there was trouble with it. I guess maint was tired of replacing brushes, said one of the units kept "burning them up". I think the problem was with the exciter. So I do belive I have a good mg if there are problems with the one in my machine.
Back 2 wireing, I think I can get this done myself as long as I can get good direction, and I feel it's here.

If the Cutler-Hammer (CH) contactor from the other 10EE was correctly set up, that is has the right coil and overload heaters, then using it makes sense. Just because the tag on the front says 220V doesn't mean that it hasn't been changed at some point. These things are modular and the coil, etc. can be easily changed. Check the value printed on the coil itself and the metal tags on the heater elements (see my conversion checklist for the locations). If the coil is 220 and the heaters are H1374 or H1375 you should be good to go. If the heaters are wrong you may be out of luck with the CH contactor. Brazil Electric used to be a source for the heaters, but I guess that we've exhausted their stock and the heaters haven't been made for decades.

This thread provides detail on how the CH contactor starting circuit works, including diagrams showing the circuit at start and during run: 10EE MG Starter Circuit with Cutler-Hammer Contactor - Revised.

The Allen-Bradley (AB) contactor that was in the machine will work just fine and is a better choice (in my opinion) since parts are easier to get and it provides overload protection on all 3 phases instead of just 2 for the original CH contactor. Here's a link to a thread that provides information on wiring up and troubleshooting an AB contactor in a 10EE: 10EE starting circuit with Allen-Bradley contactor

Either way, it's a good thing that you pulled everything out of the contactor compartment and are starting from scratch. There's not a whole lot going on in the starting circuit, it just connects to the start/stop station and the drum switch in the headstock (unless someone has wired in additional interlocks). If you need help identifying the wires just holler.

Note also that either way there are things you need to attend to if you are going to run from a rotary phase converter.

Cal

"These things are modular ..."

The Cutler-Hammer is particularly adaptable to modularity.

The contactor set is separate from the over load unit.

In the early implementations, the contactor set was directly connected to the overload unit, but the power for the coolant pump was tapped intermediate between the two, and the coolant pump was not protected, but the motor-generator was.

In the later implementations, the power for the electronic drive was tapped intermediate between the two and the overload unit was utilized to protect the coolant pump, only. The electronic drive had its own overload protection, on the DC Panel.

Either way, it's a good thing that you pulled everything out of the contactor compartment and are starting from scratch. There's not a whole lot going on in the starting circuit, it just connects to the start/stop station and the drum switch in the headstock (unless someone has wired in additional interlocks). If you need help identifying the wires just holler.

Note also that either way there are things you need to attend to if you are going to run from a rotary phase converter.

Cal[/QUOTE]

Cal thanks for all the info on the starting and run circuits with either the c/h or a/b contactor. Reading the posts/articles about these has helped me out tremendously. I have a bunch of photos of where I am currently in this project (wireing to run 220). Have changed over the controll box at front by your feet to two wires on L1'L2,L3 & 3wires bolted togeather photos of that included.
Kinda of at a roadblock since some of the wires in the contactor box are not marked. 3 large black at the bottom and a couple red comming from the start stop switch. Where do these go?
Also did I get the jumper right to run on rpc, black wire from L3 to 3?
How do you know which is the generated leg from the rpc?
Feeling a little more confident with the three phase stuff. The schematic from monarch is not a easy read for a novice!
Sure hope all this stuff from the original Mach. Is good!
Photos here
http://photobucket.com/albums/x350/alsuchy/monarch 10ee/monarch
Don't understand why but must cut and paste to make link work
Thanks for the help guys
Al

Originally Posted by Alsuchy

…
Have changed over the controll box at front by your feet to two wires on L1'L2,L3 & 3wires bolted togeather photos of that included.
Kinda of at a roadblock since some of the wires in the contactor box are not marked. 3 large black at the bottom and a couple red comming from the start stop switch.
Where do these go?

Originally Posted by Alsuchy

Photos here
http://photobucket.com/albums/x350/alsuchy/monarch 10ee/monarch

The 3 large black wires are the 3 AC phases running to the MG. They connect to the T1, T2 & T3 terminals on the left side of the terminal strip on the front of the MG and pass through the start/stop switch box without interruption. They can be connected in any order to the T1, T2 & T3 terminals on the contactor.



I don’t much care for the butt splices in the AC wires. If you don’t have enough wire to connect directly to the contactor I would recommend replacing the wires. Use #10 stranded wire. I used lengths of red, blue and black wire on my machine. This makes it easy to connect T1 on the contactor to T1 on the MG, and so forth; however, as already mentioned, they don’t need to be connected that way. When you start the MG the first time it’s critical to make sure that its turning the correct direction. If it isn’t, swap T1 and T2 at either the MG or the contactor.

The red wire coming in from the top goes to the center position switch on the headstock drum switch. You have it correctly connected. The other red wire coming in from the top and going out the bottom is the other side of the headstock center switch. It connects to terminal 3 on the start switch. The 3 black wires that also pass through the contactor compartment connect between the C1, C2 and C2 terminals on the DC panel and the headstock drum switch and control the forward and reverse contactors.

The two loose red wires that go out the bottom also connect to the start and stop switches. Someone has added wire numbers 2 and 3 to these wires on your machine; ignore those numbers. One of the red wires connects to the terminals on the start and stop switches that is common to both switches; the ones that have a jumper between the switches. That wire is #1 and connects to the #1 terminal on the contactor (see annotated photo); that’s the right most terminal on the bottom of the of the four main contacts. This can be a bit confusing since the terminal above is 3 and the one on the bottom is 1, but your black bar has the correct number on it, inside the little circles (other AB contactors may not be labeled this way). You can identify wire #1 by pulling on either end or by checking continuity with your meter. The other red wire is wire #2. Verify that it connects to the other terminal on the stop switch (the one without the jumper) and to the #2 terminal on the overload switch (see annotated photo).

Originally Posted by Alsuchy

Also did I get the jumper right to run on rpc, black wire from L3 to 3?
How do you know which is the generated leg from the rpc?

The jumper is correct.

You can identify the wires at the RPC with a volt meter. Set you meter on AC volt, using a scale that’s good for 240 volts. Take one of the two AC terminals coming in from the circuit breaker and (with the RPC running) measure the voltage from the terminal to the 3 AC terminals on the machine side. One of the 3 will read near zero volts, label it “L1”. Go to the other incoming terminal and again measure the voltage from it to the three outgoing terminals. A different terminal will read zero, label it “L2”. The unlabeled output terminal is the artificial or “wild” leg. Another way to identify the real phases is to measure from ground to the 3 output terminals. You will read about 120 VAC from ground to the real legs and different voltage (usually higher than 120) to the “wild” leg.

You can identify the leads coming into the lathe by continuity measurements. Connect the real legs to L1 and L2 and discussed in my CH contactor thread.

Cal

Hi Al,

Use this link in your posts when you want to direct people to your photobucket site:
monarch 10ee pictures by alsuchy - Photobucket
There's a space in the link in your original post that's causing the problem.

Hope this helps,

Karl

The jumper is correct.

I'm back with a big thanks for all the help.
http://i1177.photobucket.com/albums/...l/12bf35f9.jpg
So, I belive all is hooked up except the two wires comming from the 6 volt transformer,shown in the pic. I have the two connected with nuts on terminals on top connected to the light on the start sw. The other two I cannot decifer the schematic as to where they connect. Help here?
Look the pic over and comment please.
Removed all but one butt splice, red comming from drum Switch? Should this be reworked?
ALSO*** when checking for T1, T2, T3 at the terminal to the contactor box I noticed something odd? T3 appears to be fine, BUT T1 and T2 appear to be connected ( shorted togeather). If tested with the right side disconnected left side is fine. With T2 connected on right and left side T1, T2 on left OK. Once T1 on right side is connected then 1 and 2 will have continuity with each other with no resistance, both read the same?

The two input wires to the transformer connect to T1 and T2 where the motor leads T1 and T2 do at the heaters. It doesn't matter which wire connects to which terminal.

The remaining butt splice carries only a low control current, if its continuity, insulation and mechanical soundness are OK it should be work in that service. It's always better practice to have a continuous wire however.

"ALSO*** when checking for T1, T2, T3 at the terminal to the contactor box I noticed something odd? T3 appears to be fine, BUT T1 and T2 appear to be connected ( shorted togeather). If tested with the right side disconnected left side is fine. With T2 connected on right and left side T1, T2 on left OK. Once T1 on right side is connected then 1 and 2 will have continuity with each other with no resistance, both read the same?"

Not following this. Are you checking continuity of T1, T2 and T3 from the MG terminal block to the other ends of the wires that are in the contactor space? Right and left, the description is confusing. Please be clear, typing sucks but it's all we have here.

Originally Posted by DaveE907

The two input wires to the transformer connect to T1 and T2 where the motor leads T1 and T2 do at the heaters. It doesn't matter which wire connects to which terminal.

The remaining butt splice carries only a low control current, if its continuity, insulation and mechanical soundness are OK it should be work in that service. It's always better practice to have a continuous wire however.

"ALSO*** when checking for T1, T2, T3 at the terminal to the contactor box I noticed something odd? T3 appears to be fine, BUT T1 and T2 appear to be connected ( shorted togeather). If tested with the right side disconnected left side is fine. With T2 connected on right and left side T1, T2 on left OK. Once T1 on right side is connected then 1 and 2 will have continuity with each other with no resistance, both read the same?"

Not following this. Are you checking continuity of T1, T2 and T3 from the MG terminal block to the other ends of the wires that are in the contactor space? Right and left, the description is confusing. Please be clear, typing sucks but it's all we have here.

T1,T2,T3 from terminal block to contactor are OK without the opposite side connected at the terminal block. when the wires that are bolted together are connected to the terminal block @ T1 and T2 I get continuity between T1, and T2. T3 stands alone. make any sence? if not I will do a photo shoot of what i'm doing, or maybe a video. OK?

I am disappointed! flipped the sw to rpc, zoom all is good. Power at machine this is good, L3 generated good. Power at top of contactor L1,L2 real, L3 generated good. Ah! turn it on right? NOPE! No go. Coil doesn't even try to pull contactor. When contactor is pushed in manually BUZZ, HUM but no movement. BLAH!
Still worried, even more now, that I may have a short down stream of the terminal strip @ T1&T2, or worse stupidium got all over the wireing.

Originally Posted by Alsuchy

T1,T2,T3 from terminal block to contactor are OK without the opposite side connected at the terminal block. when the wires that are bolted together are connected to the terminal block @ T1 and T2 I get continuity between T1, and T2. T3 stands alone. make any sence? if not I will do a photo shoot of what i'm doing, or maybe a video. OK?

I'm with Dave, I'm not sure exactly what you're talking about, particularly the bit about bolting wires together. T1, T2 and T3 refer to wires between the contactor and the MG. If you disconnect the MG at the terminal strip on the front of the MG and check with an Ohmmeter at the contactor you should not be reading resistance between any of the three terminals T1, T2, or T3, nor between any one of them and ground; that is, the meter should read open or infinite, some read "OL". With the MG connected you should still see infinite resistance between T1, T2 or T3 and the machine base or the incoming ground (green) wire. With the MG connected, measuring between any pair of terminals T1, T2 or T3 you should read the resistance of the motor's winding, which is small but NOT zero. I don't recall what you should read, but anything from 4 to 40 Ohms would sound about right.

Cal

Originally Posted by Alsuchy

I am disappointed! flipped the sw to rpc, zoom all is good. Power at machine this is good, L3 generated good. Power at top of contactor L1,L2 real, L3 generated good. Ah! turn it on right? NOPE! No go. Coil doesn't even try to pull contactor. When contactor is pushed in manually BUZZ, HUM but no movement. BLAH!
Still worried, even more now, that I may have a short down stream of the terminal strip @ T1&T2, or worse stupidium got all over the wireing.

Let's get the contactor working and then worry about the MG. Verify that the coil is marked 220V. Check the resistance of the coil. Press the reset button to reset the overload device. Disconnect the MG from the terminal strip (terminals T1, T2, T3) for further testing until you get the contactor closing and opening with the start/stop switches. With the start button pushed you should read 240 VAC across the terminals on the top of the coil.

Make sure the MG is free to rotate by turning it by hand from the exciter belt.

Cal

Originally Posted by Cal Haines

Let's get the contactor working and then worry about the MG. Verify that the coil is marked 220V. Check the resistance of the coil. Press the reset button to reset the overload device. Disconnect the MG from the terminal strip (terminals T1, T2, T3) for further testing until you get the contactor closing and opening with the start/stop switches. With the start button pushed you should read 240 VAC across the terminals on the top of the coil.

Make sure the MG is free to rotate by turning it by hand from the exciter belt.

Cal

ok let's try this.
http://i1177.photobucket.com/albums/...l/e87a62a5.jpg
On the left side if disconnect from the terminal block all wires have continuity from the contactor, and are independent. Once connected though T1 and T2 will read as though they are shorted togeather, no resistance. T3 stands alone. If T1 is removed from the right side T1,T2,T3 are all separate.
Based on what Cal just said I would say T1 & T2 are shorted at the MG.
So now I will as suggested try to get the contactor working disconnected from the terminal strip.

Coil reads 208-220 on name plate. 180 ohms resistance. Rpc running and start button pushed. Across top terminals on coil = 0 volts.
Also no resistance across output terminals of 6volt transformer. Assuming that it's bad, when does this get energized? After contactor is closed?
I really appreciate you guys patience here!
When I must get the electrican SAY SO! Don't let me waste your time trying to save some money.
I did expect this to start. Shucks!