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10EE Spindle nose to chuck fitup

jerry wells47

Plastic
Joined
Dec 4, 2016
I am the new proud owner of a 1948 square dial 10EE. The machine was in use in a small rural machine shop, and by all appearances pretty well cared for. I ordered a 5c collet nose for it and was checking to see if Chinese chuck was of at least decent quality. This was the first time I had even put a DI on the machine. Found about .0025 runout on a ground piece of .5" drill rod. Long story short, I have determined that taper for chuck mount is not pulling in tight before chuck seats against spindle face. The spindle taper checks true with my .0005 indicator, like wise the face. used hi spot blue on spindle and printed new collet nose as well as 3 jaw that came with. Both showed a solid contact on face and barely any contact on taper. I suspect I need to remove a little bit off of the spindle face, but want to make sure, and need some advice as to method.
 
I am the new proud owner of a 1948 square dial 10EE. The machine was in use in a small rural machine shop, and by all appearances pretty well cared for. I ordered a 5c collet nose for it and was checking to see if Chinese chuck was of at least decent quality. This was the first time I had even put a DI on the machine. Found about .0025 runout on a ground piece of .5" drill rod. Long story short, I have determined that taper for chuck mount is not pulling in tight before chuck seats against spindle face. The spindle taper checks true with my .0005 indicator, like wise the face. used hi spot blue on spindle and printed new collet nose as well as 3 jaw that came with. Both showed a solid contact on face and barely any contact on taper. I suspect I need to remove a little bit off of the spindle face, but want to make sure, and need some advice as to method.

Are your camlocks adjusted to pull-in around the 4:30 O'clock mark?

Then... 10EE spindle at least WAS on-spec when shipped.
Divots/depressions won't change that. Burrs around them can do.

Thereafter .. "method" is to try a few more D1-3 backplates / integral D1-3 goods.

The "Chinese Chuck" may be Dead Nuts on-spec. Or NOT.
 
Are your camlocks adjusted to pull-in around the 4:30 O'clock mark?

Then... 10EE spindle at least WAS on-spec when shipped.
Divots/depressions won't change that. Burrs around them can do.

Thereafter .. "method" is to try a few more D1-3 backplates / integral D1-3 goods.

The "Chinese Chuck" may be Dead Nuts on-spec. Or NOT.

I only have 2 chucks and new china chuck. have tried all three with same result. Ordered a new d1-3 back plate but not going to ship for a while. Your right about taper having 70 years of chuck change dents, but gental caress with stone showed no high spots. Not being familiar with d1 style mount, am I right in assuming contact between taper and face should be as near the same as possible?
 
I only have 2 chucks and new china chuck. have tried all three with same result. Ordered a new d1-3 back plate but not going to ship for a while. Your right about taper having 70 years of chuck change dents, but gental caress with stone showed no high spots. Not being familiar with d1 style mount, am I right in assuming contact between taper and face should be as near the same as possible?

That's always been my understanding - the cams should pull the backplate into contact with the spindle face while the taper is centering the backplate, both hitting at the same time. Ideally the backplate shouldn't self release from the spindle when the cams are unlocked but instead take a little thump with the hand to pop it off. Not all my chucks have this ability.

If you can use some Plastigage on the taper you can figure out the corrective cut. IIRC it's about .007 from the backplate face for every .001 in the taper (just ran the number and it's .008) I'd chuck the backplate on a faceplate, center on the taper (check 2 diameters) and face off .008 for every .001 you're over on the taper. If you chuck it right you can pop the faceplate off and check the fit without having to reset.
 
IMO the taper leaves room for the chuck to pull up to the face even after contact with the taper is made. If you've ever put a morse taper drill/sleeve into a tailstock by hand, then tapped it home with a soft drift you will have noticed a pronounced movement when it's set home. The same will happen with the camlock and it's 1:8 taper, it should pull up on the taper until it stops against the face.
 
IMO the taper leaves room for the chuck to pull up to the face even after contact with the taper is made. If you've ever put a morse taper drill/sleeve into a tailstock by hand, then tapped it home with a soft drift you will have noticed a pronounced movement when it's set home. The same will happen with the camlock and it's 1:8 taper, it should pull up on the taper until it stops against the face.

Yeah, "sort of". But not really a lot of movement that way with an "A" or "D1" taper (same taper - different fastener philosophy is all..).

Cazeneuve's proprietary one, certainly. Their taper is so shallow it isn't obvious it is even THERE at first. Touchiest fit I am (so far..) aware of, but an enduring one, so..
 
Whoa...you guys did catch he said "remove from SPINDLE face???

Three 10EE spindles here. Two in lathes. One lying on the dining room floor. Don't ask.
More than a dozen items of D1-3 "nose art" FOR them.

I DO sorta grok how they are arranged, yes.

That's why - not for the first time - I jump onto the biz of FIRST making sure it isn't a burr, dodgy chuck, backplate, or camlock stud mis-adjustment.

"First, do no harm."
 
Three 10EE spindles here. Two in lathes. One lying on the dining room floor. Don't ask.
More than a dozen items of D1-3 "nose art" FOR them.

I DO sorta grok how they are arranged, yes.

That's why - not for the first time - I jump onto the biz of FIRST making sure it isn't a burr, dodgy chuck, backplate, or camlock stud mis-adjustment.

"First, do no harm."

I'm asking here because I feel you guys know what your talking about, but logic tells me that three chucks exhibiting the same print of spindle points to spindle as problem. I have checked spindle for burrs/hispots, found nothing but a little texture on taper area from 70 years of use. I'm using a lite spray coat of hi spot blue and all tthree chucks show a very solid imprint of face and only a trace of blue on taper area. I'm not getting in a hurry to correct this as it is not critical to most of the work I do. I'm going to wait for my ordered back plate to come in, for a little more evidence. Will get some Plastigage and chk clearance in next couple of days. Thanks to all for help on this.
 
I'm asking here because I feel you guys know what your talking about, but logic tells me that three chucks exhibiting the same print of spindle points to spindle as problem. I have checked spindle for burrs/hispots, found nothing but a little texture on taper area from 70 years of use. I'm using a lite spray coat of hi spot blue and all tthree chucks show a very solid imprint of face and only a trace of blue on taper area. I'm not getting in a hurry to correct this as it is not critical to most of the work I do. I'm going to wait for my ordered back plate to come in, for a little more evidence. Will get some Plastigage and chk clearance in next couple of days. Thanks to all for help on this.

Yer on the right route. Slow, patient, careful. Rule-out burrs & c. first, then AGAIN..etc.
 
If you like I could run one of your backplates against my Monarch indexing faceplate - it's basically unused and should work as a gage.

I am not sure what your talking about, but I'm in!! I will get plastigage and chk it and then when I send it will take a print so you can see it. That's the best offer I've had today.
 
For chuckles I checked a collet adaptor I made to hold the large Hardinge clutch collets (there's a sticky on the build) and I got interesting results.

Here's the bluing. I had to add water to my Dapra canode as it was dried out somewhat, so the bluing is a little thick:

20171008_122650_small.jpg

I ran them together but didn't mount the indexing plate to the lathe spindle, so I wasn't able to really crank on them. But the contact on the taper is really quite good:

20171008_122801_small.jpg

There the flat got pretty close, there was a little transfer from high spots:

20171008_122813_small.jpg

I'll have to repeat on the lathe so I can tighten up on the cams and see how close the flats get, I think they were pretty close. It contacts on the lathe's spindle so far as I recall.
 
First off thanks to all who held their breath while I even considered taking a cut on spindle. Pulled my head out this morning and realized I didn't know anymore about chucks that came with Mona than I did about her. I took some .001 shim stock and stuck 4 small pieces around taper of spindle and installed china chuck. result no print on face. Then tried 4 pieces of .0005 stock. Result, apx 50% contact at face. Set up china chuck in 4 jaw on bigger lathe and cut .004 off of face. Result, perfect print and now chuck has to be tapped to make it turn loose. Ran a dial on 5c taper area with about .001 runout, and is consistant after 5 tries off and on. Thanks again for everybodys help.
 
Good news!

....is consistant after 5 tries off and on. Thanks again for everybodys help.

..which were not all same camlock stud to same hole, hopefully? If it was.. try again, THREE times, each time advancing a camlock stud to the next hole.

If that is (or already WAS) stable, a touch-up grind to the closer's 5C taper, and your "virgin" 5C should see about 2 TENTHS max change.

It will "lobe" itself in due course as wear builds-up, but may as well start its service life good as can be.
 
It's probably also worth also making sure the pre-load on your bearings is set correctly. Get a length of broom handle or similar about 1' long and stick it in your spindle with chuck removed. Then put a tenths DTI on the spindle and pull/push on wood in plane with the DTI as hard as you can. There should be no really noticable deflection.

If there's movement you possibly need to tighten the pre-load. Take the top off the headstock and there is a nut you can adjust with a spanner. My spindle runout was improved significantly with a minor adjustment.
 
It's probably also worth also making sure the pre-load on your bearings is set correctly. Get a length of broom handle or similar about 1' long and stick it in your spindle with chuck removed. Then put a tenths DTI on the spindle and pull/push on wood in plane with the DTI as hard as you can. There should be no really noticable deflection.

If there's movement you possibly need to tighten the pre-load. Take the top off the headstock and there is a nut you can adjust with a spanner. My spindle runout was improved significantly with a minor adjustment.

I will chk that. I did chk runout on china chuck in all three positions and all came in .0015 or less. set up and ground 5c taper with very good results. Very repeatable 0 runout. New back plate came in, it checked just as the other chucks. Cut .004" off of face of new backplate, sticks just right now slight bump with mallet frees her up.
 
Just for interest, have anyone attempted measuring the D1 taper as per specs?

The dimensions are as quoted but a bit of a devil to measure. The 1 in 8 taper means that anything on taper is important.
 








 
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