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10EE Spindle removal and bearing reinstallation - older style - New Departure cat

bll230

Hot Rolled
Joined
Jun 14, 2007
Location
Las Vegas
To start, I finally got some good info on New Departure on the Google book project, a WWII catalogue:

New Departure Hand Book ... - General Motors Corporation. New Departure Division - Google Books

Daryl, you mention that with light bulb inside to heat the headstock the spindle slipped in. Did you have the rear bearing in first or did you put it in after the spindle was in? My front bearings are a very tight fit in the casting, and my rear bearing is not a slip fit on the spindle. Did you press the rear in after the spindle is in place to press equally on the inner and out race, or did your spindle slip through the rear? With my rear front bearing pushed in the headstock I am showing about 50 millionths runout on the spindle, and about 50 millionths on the outside of the front flanged bearing. Hopefully my front pair is ok. I would like to put the spindle in without the rear bearing to check the front pair, but I am leery now of installation as the fit is so tight.

Cal, do you still have the drawing of the older style headstock with the double row rear bearing? I only have the newer drawing with the pair of angular contact bearings.

My rear bearing is a New Departure 5210. The New Departure catalogue states for the 5000 series the balls are inserted with a defined compression so there is no relative movement. With repeated checks of my rear bearing there is actually about 0.0015 movement of the inner race relative to the outer race, a far cry from no movement. I am assuming now that the rear bearing needs to be replaced.

LocateBB on Ebay has a ND 5210(max), 5210WA, and A5210TS. The ND catalogue doesn't give all the pre/suffixes, and even this page

https://www.ahrinternational.com/HYATT-BALL-BEARINGS_nomenclature.shtml

doesn't explain those suffixes. Does anyone have any info on those three types? I guess I could buy all three and send back the two that look the least like mine.
 
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To start, I finally got some good info on New Departure on the Google book project, a WWII catalogue:

New Departure Hand Book ... - General Motors Corporation. New Departure Division - Google Books

...

Cal, do you still have the drawing of the older style headstock with the double row rear bearing? I only have the newer drawing with the pair of angular contact bearings.

My rear bearing is a New Departure 5210. ...
Thanks for that link!

Here's a section of the drawing that I have:
Drawing EE-99 10-24-1941 - Spindle Rear Bearing det.

Shoot me an e-mail and I can sent you the whole thing.

Cal
 

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The preloaded double row bearing used for the rear is no longer available and would not have been available for decades and decades. Hence why Monarch went to the duplex angular contact bearing arrangement. Well that is my assumption anyway why they changed the bearing style.

As it says in the New Departure book, the ND5210 bearing was preloaded. Any modern double row angular contact bearing wobbles all over the place.

Also what ND called a 5210, is a 3210 under the modern numbering system.
 
Yes, the spindle bearings are put in place and lock ring hand tight. I tightened the lock ring more securely after the spindle was fully installed. The headstock should be good and warm. One thing that was a huge help and something you probably can't do, is I had the headstock hanging securely off the bench with the nose up. It was a simple matter of lowering the spindle into the cavity. I think I mentioned that it was almost like the headstock sucked in that spindle. I believe I installed the rear bearing (the small one at the pulley end) after the fact using a shop made pusher..and was careful for a perfect feel in the spindle with zero binding. I was VERY fortunate in obtaining new bearings from a LA bearing supplier(can't remember the name) that still had a couple of sets leftover from the Cold War, and that they measured out to be of the higher tolerance. I think I paid about $750?? for the pair, but that was how many years ago?
 
Cal's drawing has the same bearing as mine, but the oil slinger/bearing cap is not exactly the same. The load path is identical however. Richard tells me his rear bearing was a slip fit in the casting and on the spindle. Mine was tight on spindle and tight in the casting. If the rear bearing cannot move axially with spindle expansion the outer race will preload improperly, not to mention try to bow the spindle. Also, even if the bearing is a proper fit in the casting, if the bearing cap is tightened too much - too thin a gasket, no gasket as a result of S@&$$y maintenance (that sounds familiar) - the bearing will be preloaded improperly. I understand now why there are so many posts that refer to bad rear bearings.

I think I will try a lightbulb with hairdryers in the front cavity once I try to put it back in. Then, assuming I can get a replacement rear bearing, I will try hairdryers on the rear casting with an ice pack around the spindle to keep it cool. Hopefully my new rear will then just slip in as it is obviously meant.

Bill look up any New Departure on Ebay. LocateBB will show up as a seller. I have bought all replacement ND bearings from them, at very reasonable prices. All new bearings in the apron, gearbox, backgear gearbox, motor. Now if I can figure out this one last bearing I'll hopefully be ok. Don't know if I will get to it before we go on vacation, may ponder it for a number of weeks.
 
5210 update. I ordered all three types of the 5210 and a 5510 no suffix, which is a 5210 with one shield, from Locatebb. The prices are $50-70 each.

Hopefully one of them will be replacement for the 5210. I'll report in a couple of days when I get them. Thanks to everyone for the help.
 
5210 update. I ordered all three types of the 5210 and a 5510 no suffix, which is a 5210 with one shield, from Locatebb. The prices are $50-70 each.

Hopefully one of them will be replacement for the 5210. I'll report in a couple of days when I get them. Thanks to everyone for the help.

Much less than I would have expected, even for that end.

Are we talking the same level of selected-for-precision Monarch used?

Or just drop-in type, ID/OD/width sizes?
 
Don't know, we'll find out. LocateBB has proven to be a good merchant to buy from, they'll take them back if none work out, only loss is shipping.

My 5210 has nothing else on it, unlike the front bearings which have all the suffixes on them, or the ELSR on/off shaft bearings, which have xxxxDTL on them, etc.
 
Don't know, we'll find out. LocateBB has proven to be a good merchant to buy from, they'll take them back if none work out, only loss is shipping.

My 5210 has nothing else on it, unlike the front bearings which have all the suffixes on them, or the ELSR on/off shaft bearings, which have xxxxDTL on them, etc.

One of the Timken spindle bearings in my tiny Burke #4 was also used as a wheel bearing.

Cheaply as Burke made s**t I'd not have thunk it, but no - they DID install the much higher precision Timken with "suffixes'. Not to a 10EE grade, but still - not a vanilla Jeep wheel bearing, either.

We shall just wait with you, find out before too much longer.
 
Here is a thought, comparing the arrangement of the newer style spindle with the angular contact pair with the older style spindle with the single rear bearing, it looks like Monarch adapted to the wider bearing pair by simply allowing the outer bearing to stick out the back of the casting with a new bearing cap that covers up the sticking out part, rather than fitting inside the bearing recess. They compensated for the additional width by eliminating the oil slinger using the spindle lock spline as the slinger. Would there be any issues in using two of the same id and od angular contacts and then making a new bearing cap and modifying the stack height of my components as necessary?

LocateBB has the equivalent single row angular contact in ABEC 5 for $125 each. (They have the equivalent ABEC 7 for $401 each!! - I think ABEC 5 would be good enough)

Should get the 5210s in a day or so.

first picture is old style, second picture is new style.
 

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Here is a thought, comparing the arrangement of the newer style spindle with the angular contact pair with the older style spindle with the single rear bearing, it looks like Monarch adapted to the wider bearing pair by simply allowing the outer bearing to stick out the back of the casting with a new bearing cap that covers up the sticking out part, rather than fitting inside the bearing recess. They compensated for the additional width by eliminating the oil slinger using the spindle lock spline as the slinger. Would there be any issues in using two of the same id and od angular contacts and then making a new bearing cap and modifying the stack height of my components as necessary?

LocateBB has the equivalent single row angular contact in ABEC 5 for $125 each. (They have the equivalent ABEC 7 for $401 each!! - I think ABEC 5 would be good enough)

Should get the 5210s in a day or so.

first picture is old style, second picture is new style.

I get the feeling you are covering old ground with a strong "wish for" that defy's prior experience.

$400 is NOT an "expensive" bearing. Nor even close to.
 
Well it does look like with the two angular contact bearings they are in back to back arrangement and Monarch simply changed the retainer and made a new labyrinth seal arrangement.

It is a wonder none of us have seen that before, and if my rear bearing was shot (luckily mine is still good)

So if you were to replace the rears with two angular contacts you would want a duplex medium preload back to back pair.
 
Well it does look like with the two angular contact bearings they are in back to back arrangement and Monarch simply changed the retainer and made a new labyrinth seal arrangement.

It is a wonder none of us have seen that before, and if my rear bearing was shot (luckily mine is still good)

So if you were to replace the rears with two angular contacts you would want a duplex medium preload back to back pair.

Seems so. But to what "goodness" rating, and did they match them or would it even have been needed?
 
That would be a question for a new style owner. Now that I am understanding the angular contact pairs better I looked at my feed shaft and leadscrew bearings. The leadscrew bearings have the "o" for the high spot marked on the outer race. The feed shaft bearings do not. Since the parts numbers are the same for both (all 4 actually) I have to assume that my feed shaft bearings were changed at some point, although from looking at them I would have assumed they were original. One of the 0L05DTL on the ELSR on/off shaft does not have a high point marked, don't have the other one out since it can't be pressed out and I haven't figured out how to get it out yet.

If a new style owner spent an hour to take his pulley off and remove the bearing cap we could find out if Monarch used a matched pair on the rear or they considered it unnecessary.
 
That would be a question for a new style owner.

Aye, but if I understood you correctly, you are about to "become" a new-style owner by migrating to two bearings rather than one?

Spindle bearings.

AFAIK, nothing else is at all critical, anywhere else on 10EE, certainly not leadscrew nor surfacing drive shaft. Those flex by more than any bearing tolerance would run-out.
 
Update on the spindle. I used 200 watt bulb inside the headstock and two halogen floods outside the headstock and that warmed up the casting just enough. When I put the spindle in the casting I had essentially no movement on a .0001 indicator in the inside taper of the spindle. Easily 50 millionths as Bill commented. However, the rear end of the spindle was wobbling 0.006-0.008 inch or so (say what????) I put my new 5210 rear bearing in and the rear of the spindle was restrained, obviously, down to less than 0.001, but the spindle nose was now at 0.0005 runout.

Is my spindle bent? What else is going on? The reverse shaft was taken out the headstock by the previous owner. That became apparent as I working on the headstock. It is possible that the previous owner took the main spindle bearings off and then reinstalled them with the high spots opposite each other so that the centerline of the spindle is off axis.

My next step will be removing the spindle again and then remove the front bearing pair and check the high spots; however, it will be a while. We are going on vacation to drink wine in Long Island, and then I need to clean up some of the many loose pieces in the workshop, so I think I will finish refurbing the tailstock and gearbox and then get back to the spindle.
 
Update on the spindle. I used 200 watt bulb inside the headstock and two halogen floods outside the headstock and that warmed up the casting just enough. When I put the spindle in the casting I had essentially no movement on a .0001 indicator in the inside taper of the spindle. Easily 50 millionths as Bill commented. However, the rear end of the spindle was wobbling 0.006-0.008 inch or so (say what????) I put my new 5210 rear bearing in and the rear of the spindle was restrained, obviously, down to less than 0.001, but the spindle nose was now at 0.0005 runout.

Is my spindle bent? What else is going on? The reverse shaft was taken out the headstock by the previous owner. That became apparent as I working on the headstock. It is possible that the previous owner took the main spindle bearings off and then reinstalled them with the high spots opposite each other so that the centerline of the spindle is off axis.

My next step will be removing the spindle again and then remove the front bearing pair and check the high spots; however, it will be a while. We are going on vacation to drink wine in Long Island, and then I need to clean up some of the many loose pieces in the workshop, so I think I will finish refurbing the tailstock and gearbox and then get back to the spindle.

ONE set of bearings, alone, you could be 90 degrees "off axis" and still have near-as-dammit zero TIR. "Stability", gen-you-whine stability, BOTH bearing sets nailed, and you can touch-up grind the nose ID taper & D1-3 surfaces.

Chasing yer tail if NOT stable, FIRST, however. Do not get ahead of yerself on that.

Detective work will be needed. You seem to have a handle on it. If I understand correctly, the "front" bearings are NOT new?

You will then want to log data over multiple revolutions for a polar chart to see if the deviation moves around the clock/compass at other than a 1:1 ratio to spindle turns.

If so, there is an out-of-spec or failing rolling element, AKA "ball". Or more than one.

The 4 AGD ten-millionths Hamilton DI I used for these tests was still in production at Dorsey Metrology last time I looked.

I have several "half-tenths" DI's. Those are vanilla enough, not expensive, used-but-good 'coz most were not used often. With care, they'll do well-enough for this purpose.

Cheaper than wasted time to get one, even if this is the only time you'll ever need such.

Or even a Hamilton/Dorsey if you are fortunate enough to find one.
 
Back from vacation. I have removed the spindle again. One positive note, the rear bearing now is a slip fit in the headstock, there must have been a burr that wore itself away. Now the bearing can float with expansion and contraction.

With the spindle supported on v blocks the rear of the front bearing bearing pair had .0003 runout and the front had .0008. Not good.

I carefully removed the phenolic gear and with great effort removed the lockring. The brass plug was missing beneath one of the two setscrews in the lock ring, so the previous owner had the setscrew out. Then, when I finally got the lockring off there was an aluminum sliver between the oil slinger and the inner race of the rear bearing. Obviously the previous owner had played with the lockring. The next step is to remove the bearings from the spindle, but pushing the spindle nose cap by hand won't budge them. I am afraid that pressing on the cap with a press will ruin the front bearing since it will put stress on the inner race of the front bearing. Any suggestions how to remove the them?

The bearing is a New Departure Q20212DTX5 with a code of 040 after the five. I am guessing the code has to do with identifying the matched set. The dot for the high spot is visible on both the inner and outer race.
 

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