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    Default 10ee wiring

    I know there a quite a few threads here for the 10ee but I'm still erring on the side of caution. Thus posting a new thread.

    I rescued this Monarch 10ee from inevitably ending up in the scrap pile about six month ago. It's now at a friends house (he's a full time machinist but wants to use this at his house) and I'd like to help him out getting it wired. I have wired my own equipment using Lenze VFD's in the past. My 2J BP & SB 13" lathe run great using the VFD.

    Any advice on connecting this to residential 220V would be greatly appreciated.

    Here are some pic's I have of the data plates and the machine..

    Thanks, Philimg_3651-1-.jpgimg_3650-1-.jpgimg_3649-1-.jpgimg_3646-1-.jpg

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    Quote Originally Posted by edgemerernd View Post
    I know there a quite a few threads here for the 10ee but I'm still erring on the side of caution. Thus posting a new thread.

    I rescued this Monarch 10ee from inevitably ending up in the scrap pile about six month ago. It's now at a friends house (he's a full time machinist but wants to use this at his house) and I'd like to help him out getting it wired. I have wired my own equipment using Lenze VFD's in the past. My 2J BP & SB 13" lathe run great using the VFD.

    Any advice on connecting this to residential 220V would be greatly appreciated.

    Here are some pic's I have of the data plates and the machine..

    Thanks, Philimg_3651-1-.jpgimg_3650-1-.jpgimg_3649-1-.jpgimg_3646-1-.jpg
    Your SB 13" didn't have a 230 Volt Direct Current final-drive motor of "nominal" 3 HP, pushed to 4 HP +.

    There isn't any POINT is running the roughly 4 1/2 + HP 3-Phase Motor of the DC generator(s) that FEED that final-drive motor off a VFD. It would have to hold constant speed anyway.

    An RPC of 7.5 to 10 HP would be cheaper. A Phase-Perfect would be better.
    Zero change to on-machine wiring or controls with either. Unless they need repairs, of course.

    Not as cheap would be a Solid State DC Drive. Same rig as covered here, running a 5 HP DC motor:

    Parker/Eurotherm 514C/507 4Q SSD DC Retrofit into 1961 10EE Modular

    .. was "cloned" from the one running my MG-era (nominal) 3 HP 10EE.

    As I did, you'd also need a boost transformer. Or more than one, secondaries paralleled.

    The "hollow-state" drives had such. My MG-era ones, nor your friend's MG, unit did not. They must be sourced and added-on if a single-phase-in Solid State Drive is to be used. My one is actually three, primaries in parallel, secondaries in series for (nominal) 349 VAC out @ around 7 KVA or so.
    Last edited by Monarchist; 01-09-2018 at 03:25 PM.

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    Default

    You might consider the option in this (sticky) thread:

    Single-phase Power for Motor-Generator 10EEs

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    I run mine from a 7.5 hp 240 volt rotary converter. I can't read the Input VOLTAGE on the photo. If it is not 208 or 230 / 240 , please post the VOLTAGE.

    I want to try the single phase conversion referenced in the second post whenever I retire and have time to tinker.

    This is an early motor generator drive (MG). A 3 phase A.C. motor drives a DC generator and a DC "exciter". Both are actually DC generators. These two drive a 3 hp, 230 volt DC motor which drives the spindle at variable speeds. It is a superb drive but not much is known about them today. You will find more information here than any other place I know of.

    This is not likely to be a plug and play
    machine so prepare yourself for a long learning curve.
    Bruce

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    Quote Originally Posted by edgemerernd View Post
    I know there a quite a few threads here for the 10ee but I'm still erring on the side of caution. Thus posting a new thread.

    I rescued this Monarch 10ee from inevitably ending up in the scrap pile about six month ago. It's now at a friends house (he's a full time machinist but wants to use this at his house) and I'd like to help him out getting it wired. I have wired my own equipment using Lenze VFD's in the past. My 2J BP & SB 13" lathe run great using the VFD.

    Any advice on connecting this to residential 220V would be greatly appreciated.
    ...

    Thanks, Phil
    Welcome aboard, Phil!

    Which way you go depends on your situation, budget and skill with wiring. Most guys with motor/generator drives run a rotary phase converter (RPC) and that's the best choice if you may need to run other 3-phase machines down the road. You can design and build your own RPC controller, buy a kit for one, buy a complete controller panel or buy a complete RPC (in all but the latter case you need to find a 3-phase motor to use as an idler motor). WNY Supply has kits and panels for reasonable prices. The kits are under $100, you provide the enclosure and do the wiring. Finished panels are under $200. Complete RPCs are around $700, depending on size.

    Another option is a (so called) static phase converter, which is nothing more than a motor starter and maybe some run caps (in other words, it's an RPC panel with no idler motor).

    Figure that you need a 30A, 240V circuit and plan on wiring everything with at least number 10 wire. It's good practice to have a fused disconnect at the machine itself.

    Cal

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    img_3648-1-.jpg

    Not sure if this one can be read any easier. It says 550V. Too bad, I have a 550 delta feed coming in the building that I currently work in. Not so good for my buddy at his house though. I can always rearrange the connections on the motor though..

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    Quote Originally Posted by toolnut View Post
    I run mine from a 7.5 hp 240 volt rotary converter. I can't read the Input VOLTAGE on the photo. If it is not 208 or 230 / 240 , please post the VOLTAGE.

    I want to try the single phase conversion referenced in the second post whenever I retire and have time to tinker.

    This is an early motor generator drive (MG). A 3 phase A.C. motor drives a DC generator and a DC "exciter". Both are actually DC generators. These two drive a 3 hp, 230 volt DC motor which drives the spindle at variable speeds. It is a superb drive but not much is known about them today. You will find more information here than any other place I know of.

    This is not likely to be a plug and play
    machine so prepare yourself for a long learning curve.
    Bruce
    Thanks Bruce! The rotary phase converter may be a good option for him.. I've never used one but head they consume some energy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cal Haines View Post
    Welcome aboard, Phil!

    Which way you go depends on your situation, budget and skill with wiring. Most guys with motor/generator drives run a rotary phase converter (RPC) and that's the best choice if you may need to run other 3-phase machines down the road. You can design and build your own RPC controller, buy a kit for one, buy a complete controller panel or buy a complete RPC (in all but the latter case you need to find a 3-phase motor to use as an idler motor). WNY Supply has kits and panels for reasonable prices. The kits are under $100, you provide the enclosure and do the wiring. Finished panels are under $200. Complete RPCs are around $700, depending on size.

    Another option is a (so called) static phase converter, which is nothing more than a motor starter and maybe some run caps (in other words, it's an RPC panel with no idler motor).

    Figure that you need a 30A, 240V circuit and plan on wiring everything with at least number 10 wire. It's good practice to have a fused disconnect at the machine itself.

    Cal
    Thanks Cal! Are you saying the static phase converter, assuming I changed the wiring in the motor to 220V instead of 440V, would work with no other mod's? I've used a static phase converter once in the past for a 3 phase vibratory machine with good success. I didn't love using it but it worked. Especially since the machine turned on once and ran for two hours without interruption.

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    With a 550 volt A.C. motor you have a problem as every one I have seen is single VOLTAGE. There is no way to "reconnect the motor".
    If it is 220 / 440 then you can reconnect it for 220.
    You would need a 240 volt RPM and a 240 to 600 volt 3 phase transformer.

    It will be cheaper to get a 220 / 440 MG drive from someone and swap the MG. Lots of owners have removed the MG and replaced it with a VFD and 3 phase spindle motor. Monarchist will be a good resource for drive conversions. I have not attempted this.
    Bruce

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    Quote Originally Posted by toolnut View Post
    With a 550 volt A.C. motor you have a problem as every one I have seen is single VOLTAGE. There is no way to "reconnect the motor".
    If it is 220 / 440 then you can reconnect it for 220.
    You would need a 240 volt RPM and a 240 to 600 volt 3 phase transformer.

    It will be cheaper to get a 220 / 440 MG drive from someone and swap the MG. Lots of owners have removed the MG and replaced it with a VFD and 3 phase spindle motor. Monarchist will be a good resource for drive conversions. I have not attempted this.
    Bruce
    "Advice and assistance" on DC drive conversion. I don't sell stuff, and they are not the cheapest way to go, just easier mechanically, and better-performing than VFD conversions at close to the same spend, overall.

    OTOH, Taxatwoshits might be close enough I could get an entire 220/440 VAC in 3-P MG set shipped affordably via Fastenal. "Free" other than the shipping costs.

    It should have a "wash and brush up", literally, as to the brushes, plus a new belt to the piggyback exciter. Bearings as well - why not? It was otherwise in normal working order when removed, and the commutator bars look decent.

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    Quote Originally Posted by edgemerernd View Post
    img_3648-1-.jpg

    Not sure if this one can be read any easier. It says 550V. Too bad, I have a 550 delta feed coming in the building that I currently work in. Not so good for my buddy at his house though. I can always rearrange the connections on the motor though..
    If it's a dual voltage motor, there should be two voltages listed and two amperages. What do the first two lines read?

    Quote Originally Posted by edgemerernd View Post
    Thanks Cal! Are you saying the static phase converter, assuming I changed the wiring in the motor to 220V instead of 440V, would work with no other mod's? I've used a static phase converter once in the past for a 3 phase vibratory machine with good success. I didn't love using it but it worked. Especially since the machine turned on once and ran for two hours without interruption.
    In a normal 440 to 220 conversion you also need to change the overload heaters on the AC contactor, change the fuses and optionally change the transformer for the pilot light. When running from an RPC you also need to move a wire on the AC contactor so that the coil circuit is across the two real phases. See this link:

    10EE MG 440 to 220 Conversion Checklist

    If it turns out that you don't have a dual voltage motor then you'll have to do something else, as Bruce and Bill have suggested. Another option is to keep the DC spindle motor and use an electronic DC motor controller. The low end solution uses a non-reversing DC motor controller, such as a $165 KWBT DC controller to provide armature voltage, a simple rectifier to provide field voltage and your existing DC control panel and rheostats to control speed and handle reversing, etc. The KWBT can't put out full current, but you may not need it, depending on what you're doing. Beel and Parker drives are the high end and can cost $2k and up.

    Cal

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cal Haines View Post
    The low end solution uses a non-reversing DC motor controller, such as a $165 KWBT DC controller to provide armature voltage, a simple rectifier to provide field voltage and your existing DC control panel and rheostats to control speed and handle reversing, etc. The KWBT can't put out full current
    Meah.. Got one here somewhere. NEMA-4X cased version, but "PWM", with caps, anyway. Read "needeth not a boost transformer". Or so one might be led to believe.

    (extract) AMPS 8.5 VOLTS 260 ..... HP .. uncertain, actually. Do the KVA math?

    IOW.. struggles to provide HALF current at the higher voltage, cannot regulate well when run that hard. Cannot brake well by itself, nor even LIVE very long. The spikes a contactor-controlled 10EE motor can deal out are daunting. The poor PWM drive would already be having to run like a dog with its tongue dragging the ground.

    The Beel/BICL D510 has also been found wanting, and on several counts.

    Not to forget MOST of a 10EE's RPM band is already in "Field Weakened" area of operation. That's one of the major killers of the nominally 7+ HP capable Beel/BICL D510.

    Oh, it can hit 2500 RPM, all right. So long as the spindle oil is warm and there isn't so much as the drag of a slip of crocus cloth on an actual WORKPIECE!

    The most-decent "low end" that won't break or disappoint is the 1Q (Eurotherm)/Parker-SSD 512C-16. The one you worked with Peter to get up and running on his 10EE in London a while back.

    Even so, there is hardly enough in savings to justify still having to maintain the DC panel and braking resistor pak vs using its 4Q big brother, the 514C-16.

    That one needs ZERO of the DC panel, legacy controls, or their wiring to be functional.
    Actually - if left in place? They are just in the way - even confusing.

    Back to restoring the OEM MG, then.

    DISCLOSURE: Personal BIAS! I really, really would like to find that intact MG unit a home. Trip over it too many more times, it is going to the scrap metal dealer a mile way, and the 10EE shared parts pool shrinks again.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Monarchist View Post
    "Advice and assistance" on DC drive conversion. I don't sell stuff, and they are not the cheapest way to go, just easier mechanically, and better-performing than VFD conversions at close to the same spend, overall.

    OTOH, Taxatwoshits might be close enough I could get an entire 220/440 VAC in 3-P MG set shipped affordably via Fastenal. "Free" other than the shipping costs.

    It should have a "wash and brush up", literally, as to the brushes, plus a new belt to the piggyback exciter. Bearings as well - why not? It was otherwise in normal working order when removed, and the commutator bars look decent.
    I can't thank you guys enough for diving into this.

    Monarchist, I'm not as verbally skilled in the electrical department as you, Cal and toolnut. So I appreciate your patients while I speak in Laymen terms.

    Are you telling me, essentially, that you have access to a 3 phase 220/440 AC motor to be used as the primary drive motor? If so, would this eliminate the exciter motor? I'd certainly be open to this if that's the case. I'd love to keep the original DC drive but not if it means more grey hair on my head. If something had to be fabricated to achieve such a conversion, between my shop and my good buddy who now owns the lathe, we could make that happen.

    Best for now, Phil

    Toolnut, the existing motor plate wiring diagram shows a schematic for 220/440 wiring. The plate is hand stamped with 550V though. That one is above my pay-grade. Is it possible that someone had a 550 service coming in their building, used a transformer that step down the voltage and then incorrectly tagged the motor?

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    Quote Originally Posted by edgemerernd View Post
    Are you telling me, essentially, that you have access to a 3 phase 220/440 AC motor to be used as the primary drive motor?

    Noooo.. What I have is a complete and working when pulled-out to be replaced with Solid State DC Drive ..

    ...vintage of 1942 "MG set", the piggyback exciter included.

    Basically, you would clean it up, test it (it need not be inside the 10EE for this), then pull your red-headed stepchild of a 500-odd volt ONLY MG out and slide this 220/440 (selectable) "standard issue" one into its place.

    At that point, you would have the bog-standard "majority issue" MG.

    Cal - and others - could then walk you through any further repairs if needed, 'coz it would match the normal drawings, etc.

    You'd still need a 7.5 to 10 HP RPC, a Phase-Perfect, or "native" 3-P power to run the MG.

    The Solid State DC Drive conversions, OTOH can be EITHER single phase (only, OR off one leg-pair of 3-Phase) or three phase (only).

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    Phil,
    Based on your photos I think your Motor Generator originally was 220/440 dual VOLTAGE. I also think the A.C. Motor end of the motor generator, has been rewound for 550 volts. If this is the case, the motor will only operate on 550 to 600 volts and this is quite difficult at home.
    If I am correct, one solution is to get a used 220/440 motor generator and replace the 550 volt MG. You would connect the motor for 220 volts, change motor starter heaters to match the 220 volt amp requirements. You then need a 7.5 hp idler RPC or a 10 hp. Another choice is to drive the MG with a Phase Perfect phase converter.
    Another way is to modify the 220 volt A.C. motor by the Haas Steelman method so the A.C. Motor can be driven from 220 volt single phase A.C.. one owner has done this.

    There are other solutions such as:
    Replace the MG drive with a solid state DC drive.

    Replace the spindle motor with an A.C. motor and drive the A C motor with a VFD. Hardest part here is mounting the existing back gear onto the end bell of the A.C. Motor.

    All these conversions have been made and are in the "stickeys" at the start of this forum.

    Since you saved this drive from the scrapper, you might know where is was used and can ask the shop what VOLTAGE they used. I would pursue this first to eliminate the guessing game.

    Bruce

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    Quote Originally Posted by toolnut View Post
    If I am correct, one solution is to get a used 220/440 motor generator and replace the 550 volt MG.
    I've offered him exactly that, shipping cost only.
    Another way is to modify the 220 volt A.C. motor by the Haas Steelman method so the A.C. Motor can be driven from 220 volt single phase A.C.. one owner has done this.
    Actually, I think we have two, if not three, such successes by now, not just the one.

    But he MIGHT be able to have a motor shop kill two birds with one stone.

    Rewind his 500 Volt motor BACK to 220 AND do the Steelman-Haas conversion at the same time. Rewinds are not cheap, but that part is dead easy if they are already "in there", and the result should be good for scores of years with nought but now-and-then replacement of the Power Factor correction caps as they go over-age-in-grade.

    Not to forget, 500 to 550 Volts will probably run just fine off an RPC + 240 <=> 480 Volt step-up transformer. especially if it has adjusting taps. Slightly cumbersome to make floorspace for that, but it can be "remoted" several tens of feet distant, and he'd not have to even change-out the heaters.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Monarchist View Post
    Noooo.. What I have is a complete and working when pulled-out to be replaced with Solid State DC Drive ..

    ...vintage of 1942 "MG set", the piggyback exciter included.

    Basically, you would clean it up, test it (it need not be inside the 10EE for this), then pull your red-headed stepchild of a 500-odd volt ONLY MG out and slide this 220/440 (selectable) "standard issue" one into its place.

    At that point, you would have the bog-standard "majority issue" MG.

    Cal - and others - could then walk you through any further repairs if needed, 'coz it would match the normal drawings, etc.

    You'd still need a 7.5 to 10 HP RPC, a Phase-Perfect, or "native" 3-P power to run the MG.

    The Solid State DC Drive conversions, OTOH can be EITHER single phase (only, OR off one leg-pair of 3-Phase) or three phase (only).
    Thank you.. Based upon what you and Cal have explained, and being aware of my own strengths and weaknesses, I think that your generous offer to change the MG and the exciter are at the top of the list. I think also that the addition of a RPC or a Phase Perfect would be in his best interest.

    This machine was removed from a sizable shop that abruptly closed their doors and quickly auctioned off all of the equipment. I have no way of knowing how it was actually powered.

    I'm not sure what the weight of the MG and exciter are but I could easily set up a UPS Call Tag or arrange a common carrier for them.

    For someone on a tight budget and a friend who is not an electrical engineer, this seems like the best course..

    I read through the Haas Steelman method and find it fascinating. It's above my level of competence though.

    Should I PM you to work out the details on the logistics?

    Phil

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    Quote Originally Posted by edgemerernd View Post
    Thank you.. Based upon what you and Cal have explained, and being aware of my own strengths and weaknesses, I think that your generous offer to change the MG and the exciter are at the top of the list. I think also that the addition of a RPC or a Phase Perfect would be in his best interest.

    This machine was removed from a sizable shop that abruptly closed their doors and quickly auctioned off all of the equipment. I have no way of knowing how it was actually powered.

    I'm not sure what the weight of the MG and exciter are but I could easily set up a UPS Call Tag or arrange a common carrier for them.

    For someone on a tight budget and a friend who is not an electrical engineer, this seems like the best course..

    I read through the Haas Steelman method and find it fascinating. It's above my level of competence though.

    Should I PM you to work out the details on the logistics?

    Phil
    email to [email protected] is better. It doesn't fill up like the PM-PM inbox does!

    See if there is a Fastenal store near you that can accept shipments from other Fastenal stores.

    My one is only about a mile from the house, and I've already checked that they are a participant in Fastenal's LTL shipping service. It is usually a pretty good deal compared to other carriers as they run a fleet to restock their own stores anyway.

    Pity I just had 14 pallets hauled away, but there is plenty of spare material here to fab another one.


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