What's new
What's new

10ee Wont Start

Natemechtech

Plastic
Joined
Aug 27, 2017
I am looking for some help with my lathe. I have had the lathe for about 5 years now, but only rececntly have I gotten a rotary phase converter to power up the machine.

Machine details:

Year-1946
-square dial machine
-MG drive
-Powered by RPC

Condition:
AC motor starts and runs nicely. When trying to turn on spindle with switch on head stock, the machine makes a click sound (in either direction).
After removing the cover on the control box on the headstock end of the machine, with the cover off, it can be seen that both contactors are actuating and stay actuated if the switch is left on, but the spindle motor does not start. I have tried adjusting the speed knob on the front of the machine to multiple positions, still not starting. I also removed the spindle drive belts so there should be very little starting load on the motor, still will not start.

I have been reading through many posts here trying to gather information. Looking for suggestions.
 
had the lathe for about 5 years now, but only rececntly have I gotten a rotary phase converter to power up..
.
.

Condition:
AC motor starts and runs nicely. When trying to turn on spindle with switch on head stock, the machine makes a click sound (in either direction).
After removing the cover on the control box on the headstock end of the machine, with the cover off, it can be seen that both contactors are actuating and stay actuated if the switch is left on, but the spindle motor does not start.

Five years a settin'?

Look to see if the DC final-drive motor even has its four brushes IN it.

Among the least-complicated ways to get these symptoms is if the brushes were pulled to evaluate and order new, and nothing ever went back in. Not "theory". I've done this to myself arredy.

It will at least "make turns" on three. Or just two, even if not the proper way to run it.

Good to check that both armature and field wires are connected inside the motor "peckerhead" junction box as well as just leading into the bushing. DAMHIKT, either.

Check these simple ones first. If no joy, we'll have more complex places to look into.

NB: ..and see that the brushes, if they ARE there, are free to move, properly seated, commutator is not burnt... all this with power not only OFF, but also disconnected, of course.
 
May want to see if the brushes are in the generator too.
The exciter above the generator is working.

Beyond brushes, it is time to breakout the multimeter.

Bill
 
Thank you for the replies. I have attached pictures of the commutator and brushes on the drive motor. The brushes seem in tacked and do float freely. I’m not sure of the commutator condition...I’m not much of an electrical guy, anything past the basics that is. I will check on the drive motor wire connections and generator brushes tomorrow morning.

Thank You
Monarch drive motor.jpg
 
Thank you for the replies. I have attached pictures of the commutator and brushes on the drive motor. The brushes seem in tacked and do float freely. I’m not sure of the commutator condition...I’m not much of an electrical guy, anything past the basics that is. I will check on the drive motor wire connections and generator brushes tomorrow morning.

Thank You
View attachment 216067

More black in the commutator track than should be. These need some TLC, even if NOT the proximal cause for failure to run.

I'll have to find a camera and go see if the "tamper" mechanism matches mine, but from memory it doesn't LOOK right.

OK... back now.. NB: UGLY motor. Asided for rebuild. It had been used in semi-destructive testing..

The whole Magilla:

View attachment 216070

The spring at the end of it I'm not sure yours has:

View attachment 216071

The tamper puts "just so" pressure on the brushes, remains reasonably linear as they wear as well, (the coiled spring part..) so they should be movable by hand, but still noticeably held inward by it.

Even so, and badly worn, unless there is an actual air-gap under at least three brushes, once those big contactors draw-in, the motor should run, complain, or both - not sit silent.

Next up:

For all the visual complexity of the DC motor and generator, at the end of the day, the Armature power can be 100% interrupted anywhere along exactly ONE path, either direction (A1, A2 AKA + /- ). There are no other "phases" to hum or struggle and signal phase-loss.

Meter and SCHEMATIC time.
 
Just picked up some electrical contact cleaner, going to clean up the commutator. Attached is another picture of the "tamper" mechanism. The springs which apply load to the brushes are in place, and seem to function as described.

20171225_212553.jpg
 
Does this lathe have electric lead screw reversing? If so, there will be a knob on the block on the tail end that holds the bearings for the shafts on the front of the bed. There are settings on this knob that shut the spindle off completely.

Bill
 
Just picked up some electrical contact cleaner, going to clean up the commutator. Attached is another picture of the "tamper" mechanism. The springs which apply load to the brushes are in place, and seem to function as described.

View attachment 216092

Good news, then!

You'll actually want a commutator "stone". About ten bucks.

Abrasive papers or cloth on a stick work, too. The purpose-made stone is easier to use, lasts a long time, and is less likely to get residual grit embedded in the Copper.

Brushes can be re-seated with abrasive cloth/paper wrapped around the commutator, grit side out. Don't use Silicon Carbide. It is a semi-conductor, also notorious for embedding loose grains. Woodworker's "flint" or "garnet" papers - Silicon Dioxide, both, are my preference.

Your Brush "timing" will need checked, probably adjusted, as well. Search that on PM, Monarch Forum.

WHEN.. everything is back to proper and you are up and running?

That coating on the commutator should go from newly-surfaced bright to a nice red-brown, never black, and you can expect about 2,000 power-on-hours from a set of brushes.

For most of us, a 10EE no longer on 24 X 6+ War production, that is many years, so it is worth starting-off right.
 
Does this lathe have electric lead screw reversing? If so, there will be a knob on the block on the tail end that holds the bearings for the shafts on the front of the bed. There are settings on this knob that shut the spindle off completely.

Bill

Thank You again for the responses. This lathe does not have electric lead screw reverse.
 
I guess I didn't notice the reference to contact cleaner. It is not for cleaning commutators and I would not use it. Yours looks a little dark, but I wouldn't worry about it.

I have been cleaning commutators with 400 grit wet or dry paper for over 50 years and have yet to see an embedded grain. Just another old wives tale with no basis in fact. You do want to clean it out of the slots. I grind the rounded end off a hacksaw blade end with the teeth pointing away from it and grind the set down to fit the slots. Drag the crud out toward you and blow them out afterward. Personally, I wouldn't do anything to it., Your problem is elsewhere. You do need to check the brush timing, but even far off, it would still do something if power was getting to it.

The problem should be fairly easy to run down with a voltmeter.

Bill
 
I have been cleaning commutators with 400 grit wet or dry paper for over 50 years and have yet to see an embedded grain.
At 400 to the inch before even breaking-down, I don't know anyone else with vision good enough to see an embedded grain, either.

:)

Anyhoo.. makers set that flag. Not "old wives".

Cheap enough to heed it, regardless.
 
I guess I didn't notice the reference to contact cleaner. It is not for cleaning commutators and I would not use it. Yours looks a little dark, but I wouldn't worry about it.

I have been cleaning commutators with 400 grit wet or dry paper for over 50 years and have yet to see an embedded grain. Just another old wives tale with no basis in fact. You do want to clean it out of the slots. I grind the rounded end off a hacksaw blade end with the teeth pointing away from it and grind the set down to fit the slots. Drag the crud out toward you and blow them out afterward. Personally, I wouldn't do anything to it., Your problem is elsewhere. You do need to check the brush timing, but even far off, it would still do something if power was getting to it.

The problem should be fairly easy to run down with a voltmeter.

Bill

Bill, Thanks for the info.

This is what I actually ended up doing. I used 400 grit paper and a toothbrush to clean the commutator on both the drive motor and the exciter. All brushes seem to be intact and have spring pressure. Still same condition, drive motor will not even try to start or even make a sound.

I also took the cover off of the box on the drive motor and found the following:

-with the AC motor running and the drum switch on the headstock in neutral position the terminals F1 and F2 have 120v measured across them.

-Also I think I verified function of the rheostat by seeing voltage change across the F1-F2 terminal when adjusting the speed control knob.

-with AC motor running terminals A1 and A2 are dead. When drum switch on head stock is actuated, the contactors in the control box actuate, but A1 and A2 are still dead.

Again im not an electrical expert by any means, just trying to figure my way through this.

Thanks
 
both the drive motor and the exciter. All brushes seem to be intact and have spring pressure.

You may have covered this, just not listed it. There are THREE commutator & brush sets.

- The "main" DC generator, (source for the Armature power) on the same shaft as the 3-P AC input drive motor, brushes lower-down, at TS-end "door" end of the base.

- The "exciter" (DC Generator..) "piggyback" atop, as you have mentioned. Source for 115 VDC (nominal - 120 is fine..) for contactors (fixed) and Field power (variable) to the final drive motor.

This also supplies Field power to the main DC Generator (also variable - the "other" rheostat).

- The final-drive motor under the spindle, primary "consumer" of both Armature and Field power.

Have you, in fact, checked the main DC Generator's brushes as well as the Exciter and final-drive motor? Sparks should be seen at its brushes, voltage to as much as 260 VDC should be appearing on output, tied to GA1 and GA2 on the 12-position terminal strip,

Presuming it is OK, what of the overload relays for E1 and E2 (left laying panel, right about mid-height, top to bottom, on the schematic). Not impossible all you have to do is press a button, HS backside, though they interrupt the power to the contactor's coils, which are working, not the main current path, so I doubt it will be that easy.

:)

Another one to check that IS is the circuit is overload "OL" on line GA2, shown in the "Simplified Diagram" inset at the upper right corner of the schematic.
 
You may have covered this, just not listed it. There are THREE commutator & brush sets.

- The "main" DC generator, (source for the Armature power) on the same shaft as the 3-P AC input drive motor, brushes lower-down, at TS-end "door" end of the base.

- The "exciter" (DC Generator..) "piggyback" atop, as you have mentioned. Source for 115 VDC (nominal - 120 is fine..) for contactors (fixed) and Field power (variable) to the final drive motor.

This also supplies Field power to the main DC Generator (also variable - the "other" rheostat).

- The final-drive motor under the spindle, primary "consumer" of both Armature and Field power.

Have you, in fact, checked the main DC Generator's brushes as well as the Exciter and final-drive motor? Sparks should be seen at its brushes, voltage to as much as 260 VDC should be appearing on output, tied to GA1 and GA2 on the 12-position terminal strip,

Presuming it is OK, what of the overload relays for E1 and E2 (left laying panel, right about mid-height, top to bottom, on the schematic). Not impossible all you have to do is press a button, HS backside, though they interrupt the power to the contactor's coils, which are working, not the main current path, so I doubt it will be that easy.

:)

Another one to check that IS is the circuit is overload "OL" on line GA2, shown in the "Simplified Diagram" inset at the upper right corner of the schematic.

Monarchist, Thank You for the help.


I did now check and clean all of the brushes and cummutators that you referenced.

At the moment I dont have a diagram or schematic. I did acquire a 10ee manual with some diagrams but only recently when I needed to look at it did I realize that it is for a tube drive machine, not MG. Do you know of somewhere I can get a diagram. Tried calling Monarch today but they were closed.

Thank You.
 
Monarchist, Thank You for the help.


I did now check and clean all of the brushes and cummutators that you referenced.

At the moment I dont have a diagram or schematic. I did acquire a 10ee manual with some diagrams but only recently when I needed to look at it did I realize that it is for a tube drive machine, not MG. Do you know of somewhere I can get a diagram. Tried calling Monarch today but they were closed.

Thank You.

Monarch will sell you a manual that is not 100% relevant - there are some sales brochure reproductions for bigger Monarch lathes helping fill-out the ring binder - but IS exactly relevant where it matters - schematic included, 'coz they look-up the as-built info for your specific machine by S/N.

Your S/N and - last time I looked - about $75.

Someone has published a link to a scanned copy, but I know not if it matches your machine.

Be prepared for a bit of tedious tracing. At least the US Navy trained members of our team at Northrop-Page back in '68 would have given the Monarch Machine Tool schematics a failing grade and had them re-done for simpler layout, fewer crossovers and doglegs and gotten greatly improved readability.

IOW - reading it is a PITA.

:)
 
I would PM the moderator Cal.
He has good prints for most machines. Wife is on the computer watching a long movie so I can't go looking for a copy to send you tonight.

Bill
 
It definitely sounds like something is going on with the DC generator. The DC exciter is working just fine.

Remove the cover on the tailstock end of the machine. Make sure that the MG set is turning the right direction. Looking at the tailstock end of the M/G set, the shafts should be rotating clockwise; if not, swap the two real phases where they connect to the fused disconnect on the back of the machine. (This is probably not the reason the machine isn't starting, but is definitely something you need to check any time you change the AC connections on an M/G machine.)

Remove the access cover at the operator's feet. Remove the cover for the terminal panel on the side of the M/G. Check the DC voltages between the following two terminal pairs: GA2 to GS1 and GF2 to GF1. Check the voltages with the speed control all the way CCW, in the middle (more or less) and all the way CW, and let me know what you get. Count the of turns on the speed control and to figure out about where the midpoint is.

It would be helpful to see a photo of the contacts on the forward and reverse relays (the big relays in the middle of the DC control panel).

Your spindle motor commutator looks OK to me, from what little I can see. The main things to look for are black stripes and black commutator bars.

Send me an e-mail and I'll send you a copy of the wiring diagram for your machine.

Cal
 
It definitely sounds like something is going on with the DC generator. The DC exciter is working just fine.

Remove the cover on the tailstock end of the machine. Make sure that the MG set is turning the right direction. Looking at the tailstock end of the M/G set, the shafts should be rotating clockwise; if not, swap the two real phases where they connect to the fused disconnect on the back of the machine. (This is probably not the reason the machine isn't starting, but is definitely something you need to check any time you change the AC connections on an M/G machine.)

Remove the access cover at the operator's feet. Remove the cover for the terminal panel on the side of the M/G. Check the DC voltages between the following two terminal pairs: GA2 to GS1 and GF2 to GF1. Check the voltages with the speed control all the way CCW, in the middle (more or less) and all the way CW, and let me know what you get. Count the of turns on the speed control and to figure out about where the midpoint is.

It would be helpful to see a photo of the contacts on the forward and reverse relays (the big relays in the middle of the DC control panel).

Your spindle motor commutator looks OK to me, from what little I can see. The main things to look for are black stripes and black commutator bars.

Send me an e-mail and I'll send you a copy of the wiring diagram for your machine.

Cal

Cal,
Thank you for the input.
As soon as I get time tomorrow, I will make these checks and post back here.
 
Cal,
Thank you for the input.
As soon as I get time tomorrow, I will make these checks and post back here.

Follow Cal's lead. He's better for this than I am.

If you get stuck as to need of photos, I have one MG 10EE - "untouched" (by myself, yet. Can't speak for its first 74 years), three motors, and another MG unit all OUT of their machines, easily gotten at with a camera.
 








 
Back
Top