13EE Speed issues

thesaurian · Mar 3, 2014

About a year ago we were fortunate (?) enough to acquire a Monarch with the tyratron drive. It was complicated to get set up, and we never saw it in service priior to buying. When hooked up, it worked quite well, but the speed as controlled only required us to move the rheostat a little to change the speed a LOT.

In the last month we changed a couple of magnetic coils on a couple of contacts, because one burnt. Since then we no longer have reverse, and the speed of the machine is DOUBLE the speed it should be, and it changes faster with no change at the rheostat.

Anyone have ideas on what to start checking? I live in a remote area of Canada with limited access to electricians, and none with experience on something like this.

Could I have bad thyratrons? It uses four thyratrons to control the speed.

Thanks!

peterh5322 · Mar 3, 2014

Speed issues are often connected to an unstable field regulator.

The field regulator in the 13EE is, as I recall, electronic, whereas the armature regulator is, as I recall, electro-mechanical (a Ward-Leonard System).

So, thoroughly check the field regulator, after ensuring that the armature regulator is putting out 230 volts at the midpoint, or above the midpoint.

The field regulator should be putting out 115 volts below the midpoint (constant torque area), and somewhat lower than 115 above the midpoint (constant horsepower area).

The 13EE/EE1000 have constant surface speed cutting, and the radial position of the cross-slide will (or should) change the spindle's rpm.

thesaurian · Mar 3, 2014

Thank you for the information! This 13EE doesn't have CSS. I have seen pics of those that do, but am still happy without. I would like to get this problem solved, the machine has proved itself quite useful! A sh@tload of torque! Have barely seen the load meter even budge, and accelerates like a banshee!
If anyone has suggestions to try, please throw them my way, I'm all ears! (and thumbs?)

Tannewitz · Mar 4, 2014

I have never seen a model 13E E without the constant surface speed feature. Can you please post photograph of your lathe for us all to see its features. Does yours have the hydraulic tail stock and is it 30 inches or 54 inches between centers?

Thank you, John

BuckyM1A · Mar 4, 2014

Ill throw it out there for what its worth, if you dont have it already Id get ahold of Monarch and order up a manual and tech info. Having the correct electrical diagrams for your machine would go a long way in tracking down any possible problems, especially with as rare and complex as the 13EE is. It will also let you know how the machine was originally configured, and if it has been altered at all.

Jim

peterh5322 · Mar 4, 2014

"I have never seen a model 13E E without the constant surface speed feature"

A 13EE without CSS could use a simple rheostat for spindle motor field control, just as the generator field control uses a rheostat.

The whole point of the thyratron field regulator in the 13EE (and the EE1000) is to enable a simple 5 watt potentiometer which is controlled by the radial position of the cross-slide to also influence the field regulator.

I suspect the CSS is there, but perhaps disconnected, or removed and hence disabled, thereby making the field regulator a single- rather than a two-input electronic drive system.

Jim McIntyre · Mar 4, 2014

thesaurian said:
...the speed of the machine is DOUBLE the speed it should be, and it changes faster with no change at the rheostat...

Hmm. Does the spindle speed change as you crank the cross-slide?

thesaurian · Mar 5, 2014

SORRY ALL! The machine is a model 71 NOT a 13 ee! Ideas?

Steve in SoCal · Mar 5, 2014

I am not a drive expert by any stretch however; your symptoms sound like the IR compensation may need adjustment. In general on drives with issues the first thing to do is confirm that the basics are checked. Perhaps you have if not, check all settings and adjustments. Check the wiring terminals, high resistance can cause all kinds of gremlins.

Steve

thesaurian · Mar 6, 2014

As an update to this, the speed will accelerate up past max RPM as well. There are 5 potentiometers in the cabinet that I have start to make adjustments on. No real success yet, still hoping for ideas. Thanks!

beckley23 · Mar 6, 2014

Have you contacted Monarch for the manuals and wiring diagrams, and troubleshooting advice?
Harry

thesaurian · Mar 9, 2014

We have wiring schematics, and I contacted Monarch. Monarch no longer has anyone with knowledge there. After a few more adjustments, we are experiencing sparking under lathe headstock by the motor.
We had to run an extra ground when initially hooked up due to a current running from the lathe to the electrical cabinet. Wondering if there might be a short in the dc motor? Would this cause some of the problems with speed?

thesaurian · Mar 18, 2014

Had local electrician check the dc motor, all is good on that front, he mentioned that the flash I saw is just some of the excess current flowing through when we start the machine and it tries to overspeed.

How can a person check the thyratrons? Four are c16j's and one that is otherwise unidentified, but WAY smaller. Tried to get volt readings across the ends of the contacts of the small one, and speed changed when contact was made with the multimeter.

If this machine wasn't so sweet to use, I would send it to auction! But my heart aches when I think of doing that!

thesaurian · Mar 18, 2014

Was just using, seemed like it wanted to run properly and then slowly sped up until it tripped off!

PaulM · Mar 18, 2014

General way to check a C16J has been to swap it into a known running macine. Got anyone near by with a properly running WIAD or modular EE? Bring tubes over swap in one at a time and confirm function.

Probably other ways but that is what I do.
Paul

thesaurian · Mar 18, 2014

Will see what I can do to try and duplicate all variables!
As a side note, if the clutch handle is brought back to neutral for a minute, there is one contactor that will remain closed, and not allow the machine to refire up again if the clutch handle is again depressed. I have to shut the hydraulic pump unit and leave it for ten to thirty seconds to allow it to reset and then turn the hydraulics back up again.
Turning the machine on/off again numerous times will allow me to operate it, but is frustrating when turning and checking multiple diameters!

Thanks for the help so far! Throw out any suggestions for me to try!

thesaurian · Mar 20, 2014

Would the high speed potentiometer being bad do all this? Am testing things, and it seems different than the other four pots. There is also a whole slew of fuses on the underside of the "brain" area of this machine, and six were bad. Trying to step through thing a little at a time! Where to get parts?

thesaurian · Mar 21, 2014

I was mistaken, they are diodes. I am inexperienced with technology, how do you post pics here?

thesaurian · Mar 31, 2014

Tried testing potentiometers, and can set them to what seems like the "center" of the resistance setting. This allowed me to fire up the lathe, ansd it controlled well for a few minutes, then the speed quickly escalated and the safeties shut it off to keep it from dying altogether. Ideas?

9100 · Apr 1, 2014

As to whether the thyratrons are good, the first thing to check if they are all showing about the same level of glow. I am probably one of very few people who worked with thyratrons when they were the only game in town. Silicon controlled rectifiers put them pretty well out of business and I don't miss them. If it comes to that, I can test them, but I doubt that I can explain how to anyone who is not electrically knowledgeable.

One thing that occurs to me is that the speed control pot is open on the lower end. A simple ohmmeter check will show that. Next put a meter on the field voltage and see if it changes when the speed goes off.

Bill

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