16" Series 60 (I think)

Hello all,

First post so please forgive any ignorance

In another life I was a toolmaker who worked for a company called Talon in Gastonia, NC. The company originated in Meadville, PA. I spent most of my time at Talon running a surface grinder. After the company folded I became a Police Officer and continue to be so today. I never really got the machining bug out of my system though. Several years ago, I purchased a Bridgeport mill along with some support tooling which I have at my home shop. I've always wanted a lathe however I successfully resisted the urge to purchase an import. I've looked for a nice piece of American iron for years and now, I think I've found it.

I know it's a Monarch. The name plate reads: 16" with a serial number of 37603. The manufacture date appears to read 11-1-1952. The current owner states it's a "60 series." After reading this forum and looking at numerous pictures, I believe that he is correct. The machine is in pretty good shape, or at least it appears to be. I'm going tomorrow to thoroughly inspect it. The things I know are as follows:

- It's powered by a 15hp motor
- It's currently under power and used on an irregular basis in a small job shop
- It's super heavy
- It runs very quietly, shifts through the gears with minimal effort and makes no unusual sounds
- It's super heavy
- The ways are not scored or damaged
- It's super heavy
- The current owner states it will hold .0005 however I haven't checked any of his work
- Did I mention its really, really heavy?

Ok, so I'll inspect it tomorrow and post my findings here. My initial question concerns powering it at my shop. I do not have 3 phase power. I run my mill with a VFD. I'm told I can run this lathe with a 30 hp VFD fed with single phase power. Is this accurate? Also from what I've read, I'll have to size the circuit at 125% of the VFD's rated input (which appears to be around 90 amps) meaning I'll have to install a ~115 amp circuit, if I keep the 15 hp motor. Another source states that I can install a smaller motor (5 - 7.5 hp) and run a smaller, appropriately sized drive as I highly doubt I'll ever have need of 15 available hp. This route seems advantageous as I'd be running a brand new motor in place of the 63 year old motor currently installed. Also, running a VFD would allow me to bypass the antiquated starter/wiring/fuse/whatever else is in the belly of this beast current setup. As far as a new smaller motor goes, I think the cost of the motor itself would be offset by the reduced cost of the VFD making the change to a smaller motor a little less financially straining.

If (that's a big if) this lathe works out, do you guys think I'm on the correct train of thought as far as powering the machine goes?

You obviously have not priced a 30 hp VFD. I bet it costs a fair bit more than the lathe did. It runs now....Don't mess with it Buy or build a rotary phase converter and make chips.

Thanks for the reply. As to costs, I've observed the following:

- 30 hp VFD ~ $1500 (DURApulse)
- 30 hp RPC ~ $2200 (American Rotary)

It seems as though a VFD is a little cheaper than a RPC, unless I'm missing something?

This being said, I could install a DURApulse 30 hp VFD for ~$1750 after adding the cost of the wiring, enclosure, controls, etc... while an American Rotary 30 hp phase converter would run ~$2500.

... or...

I could install a 7.5 hp Leeson motor with a 15 hp DURApulse VFD for ~$1750, the benefits being that of a new motor replacing the original along with a smaller circuit, wires, etc...(Though I'm not sure how much benefit the latter will really add up to)

Now, reading previous posts, it seems that a VFD is the way to go. I could wire the motor directly to the VFD and set a long start up time to cut the amp draw which, to a total electrical novice such as myself, sounds advantageous.

Again, I know only enough to get myself into trouble thus I'd rather ask these questions before making the purchase rather than after when I find out it can't be done.

Light Hammer said:

Thanks for the reply. As to costs, I've observed the following:

- 30 hp VFD ~ $1500 (DURApulse)
- 30 hp RPC ~ $2200 (American Rotary)

It seems as though a VFD is a little cheaper than a RPC, unless I'm missing something?

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Uhh.. yeah. That most folks just grab a reasonably-local used 3-P motor for RPC idler -ordinarily at less than $300 - plus cost of go-fetch on their own wheels rather than even incur freight charges. Also that two lesser HP idlers can be as good as one greater HP and more flexible where not every hour needs the larger number.

EG: An RPC typically keeps over a thousand bucks in your own Levi's for the price of rather minor hassle.

Otherwise, VFD are light enough as far as shipping. It is the rating / DE-rating issue for single-phase use that bites. That is far more of a hassle above 5 HP than it is at 5 HP and below.

This being said, I could install a DURApulse 30 hp VFD for ~$1750 after adding the cost of the wiring, enclosure, controls, etc... while an American Rotary 30 hp phase converter would run ~$2500.

... or...

I could install a 7.5 hp Leeson motor with a 15 hp DURApulse VFD for ~$1750, the benefits being that of a new motor replacing the original along with a smaller circuit, wires, etc...(Though I'm not sure how much benefit the latter will really add up to)

Now, reading previous posts, it seems that a VFD is the way to go. I could wire the motor directly to the VFD and set a long start up time to cut the amp draw which, to a total electrical novice such as myself, sounds advantageous.

Again, I know only enough to get myself into trouble thus I'd rather ask these questions before making the purchase rather than after when I find out it can't be done.

Click to expand...

Probably a great many folks who DO have experience as would be delighted to see you manage a 30 HP VFD install @ $1750, ancilliaries included.

I'm not teasing - costs HAVE been coming down.

It just seems too good to be true as of end-August, 2015, North American Continent.

Might want to post a Bill of Materials & the DURAPulse SKU, and see what flags are raised?

As-in .. not all VFD even CAN be de-rated for single-phase use, least of all the newest ones built to a price-point and not intended for that.

There will ordinarily be a page in the manual somewhere that addresses that issue. De-ratings of 60% to 70% are not uncommon even where it is supported at all.

Bill

I guess the price of VFDs has been coming down a lot since I was looking at them. I stand corrected. I have an A R rotary phase converter, it works well for me as I have so many machines.

moonlight machine said:

I guess the price of VFDs has been coming down a lot since I was looking at them. I stand corrected. I have an A R rotary phase converter, it works well for me as I have so many machines.

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Some are cheap. Not 'more economical'. Cheap. And a 'come down' is what can happen.

Never having used one, I'm not gonna knock Durapulse.

But a bit of research shows that others certainly have done, so...

thermite said:

Some are cheap. Not 'more economical'. Cheap. And a 'come down' is what can happen.

Never having used one, I'm not gonna knock Durapulse.

But a bit of research shows that others certainly have done, so...

Click to expand...

Understood. I surf'd on over to Wolf Automation and it looks like I can purchase a Teco A510 VFD in the 15 hp size for $927.50 (which would require a motor change for my application). It looks like the price curve spikes quite sharply after this size drive.

The Leeson motor I looked at has a F.L. amp rating of 20a while the Teco A510 in the 15 hp size is rated for 47a "constant torque" and 56a "variable torque" (I'm not sure on the difference, electrically). Given the above posted information I obtained, it seems as though this motor/VFD combination would work. This scenario would put me in the same ~ $1750 installed range.

The Teco VFD's seem to get higher ratings that the DURApulse. Again, please excuse my ignorance. I'd rather make mistakes in the abstract than to learn, too late, that I was wrong.

Thoughts?

Light Hammer said:

Understood. I surf'd on over to Wolf Automation and it looks like I can purchase a Teco A510 VFD in the 15 hp size for $927.50 (which would require a motor change for my application). It looks like the price curve spikes quite sharply after this size drive.

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Worse. it gets hard to find 240 VAC input models. Most want to go to 480 VAC, and that then also wants a transformer, and the transformer needs to be single-phase.

Transformers are heavy bastids to SHIP, let alone purchase.

The Leeson motor I looked at has a F.L. amp rating of 20a while the Teco A510 in the 15 hp size is rated for 47a "constant torque" and 56a "variable torque" (I'm not sure on the difference, electrically). Given the above posted information I obtained, it seems as though this motor/VFD combination would work. This scenario would put me in the same ~ $1750 installed range.

The Teco VFD's seem to get higher ratings that the DURApulse. Again, please excuse my ignorance. I'd rather make mistakes in the abstract than to learn, too late, that I was wrong.

Thoughts?

Click to expand...

Check the nameplate on the Leeson, see where it was made. If unhappy, consider a Wisconsin-built Marathon. 'Black Max' are value-for-money, generally good experience among PM members, and built specifically for VFD use.

Teco are consistently among the least-cost VFD that have a decent rep. Lots of folks like those as well.

Any VFD a non-expert purchases should be NEW, and with manufacturer's full warranty. Not enough saving to risk the dice-roll on used or even stale shelf-stock ones.

Remember also, that if 'downmotoring' from 7.5 HP to 5 HP, you will more-often run it closer to its max than if you left the 7.5 HP in-place.

Your call, but the up-front spend on better electricals can save you grief in more than one way over a period of multiple years.


Bill

Just as a point of reference; I boughta 30 HP ABB inverter used off ebay for 300.00. It works fine it is not new or pristine but it was less than 400.00 to my door, it is NOT small or light weight. I think it is around 65~70 pounds, nearly 2 feet high, better than a foot wide and, 8 or 9 inches deep.

Steve

Steve in SoCal said:

Just as a point of reference; I boughta 30 HP ABB inverter used off ebay for 300.00. It works fine it is not new or pristine but it was less than 400.00 to my door, it is NOT small or light weight. I think it is around 65~70 pounds, nearly 2 feet high, better than a foot wide and, 8 or 9 inches deep.

Steve

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Those, similar vintage Allen-Bradley, and comparables from but a few other top-tier makers are large and heavy and have survived partly because they used an earlier, bulkier, heavier and less-stressed generation of capacitor as well as the rest of their electronics - plus the space to house all that and the structure to keep the bits secure in their places.

Not all are in equal condition after a long service life plus indifferent handling and storage.

Legendary durability aside, time has marched on, best of the lot have been largely snapped-up already. PM'ers and others who grabbed them have had the ability to boast of their good fortune for a decade and more now.

Folks should consider the diminishing pool of remaining ones an increasingly risky dice-roll by this time of this century.

As to mass.. just tack a zero on the right-hand side and HOPE to divide by two, best-case.. for EACH of comparable KVA idler motor or dry-type transformer.

If/as/when one can toss an engine-hoist and some rigging and blocking into the pickup - or even a van or trailer - and go-fetch, hands-on FIRST.. within a pleasant hour's drive or thereabouts? Good deal.

Paying for palletizing/handling, freight, and lift-gate delivery of goods one cannot first inspect? Much less so.

Mere di$tance can favour a VFD. Buying 'blind' and/or inexpertly further favours respected brands, new, with warranty, and the more highly respected, the lower the risk.


Bill

Perhaps I should ask this, then... What brand of VFD should I be looking at? Given the following:

- I'll purchase a new unit, from a distributor
- I'll more than likely change the motor from the current 15 hp to a new 7.5 hp (unsure of the brand as of now)
- I'll control the motor directly from the VFD with new wiring and switches, bypassing all the original equipment

I know this lathe has a clutch. I read on this forum about a situation where a gentleman had issues with the VFD faulting if he engaged the clutch too fast. As I recall, this issue was solved with a programming change. Hopefully, I've recalled correctly

I'm packing my tools to head over and inspect the lathe. I'll take plenty of pictures as I'm sure the rule states: It didn't happen if there are no pictures. Wish me luck!

I just got home from inspecting the lathe. As promised, here are some pictures:



Overall, the lathe is in nice shape. The ways have an ever so slight ridge near the peak, on the spindle end. I couldn't find any scoring or other damage with the exception of a small indentation near the spindle end. The table movement is smooth as glass on all three axes. All the controls operate smoothly and seem to have positive engagements. There is a slight clunk when engaging the clutch in at the higher speed settings. The current owner stated that he always rotates the chuck a few degrees prior to startup to take the slack out of the drive. I noticed that the noise wasn't present when he did so. Also, the clutch seems to grab suddenly when actuated. Perhaps there is an adjustment which would allow a little more feathering of the clutch? All the oil sight windows indicate that the oil level is good. The oil appears to be clean. There is a small leak around the feed screw at the spindle end. I suppose there's a seal in there that's seen better days.

I think a good bath is in order. The price is what I believe to be right. It looks like I'll be bringing this old girl home.

I just noticed a dial, I think, (maybe a travadial of some sorts) between the carriage and crossfeed handles. Any info, I've never seen this on the saddle.

It's actually two dials, both of which indicate carriage travel (Z). I can't remember what the graduations are however I do know one indicates much smaller that the other... thousandths and hundredths maybe?

This isn't a world shaker bit of knowledge, but I am sure the lathe we are talking about is a series 61, I have a series 60, and there are a few differences I noted. A 61 has a spindle reverse function, as well as the tailstock has 2 clamp bolts. The carriage travel dial is not something I was aware of on a 61. My EE1000 has this feature, although the previous owner installed an actual trava-dial for carriage travel, not sure why, because the Monarch one works just fine

Dale

Light Hammer said:

It looks like I'll be bringing this old girl home.

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N'er mind the passage of years. Technologically, a Series 61 isn't really 'Old' as manual lathes go.

Right close to the last-ever iteration of Engineering before Monarch - and others - turned their efforts to NC, mostly add-on, then to CNC with major design changes, such as slant beds, powered chip evacuators, full enclosures, etc.

Your crossfeed dial sounds like the Monarch 'accumulator' option. Covered on PM with photos, cleaning and repair steps, and not the same way of working as a Trav-a-Dial.

Bill

Light Hammer said:

It's actually two dials, both of which indicate carriage travel (Z). I can't remember what the graduations are however I do know one indicates much smaller that the other... thousandths and hundredths maybe?

Click to expand...

Well that's pretty cool. I wasn't aware that monarch had that as a feature. I've never seen anything like that before actually.

I called the rigger today. He's scheduled to go out and look at the lathe tomorrow afternoon, to see what all he'll need to get her moved.

I'm kind of torn on this motor issue. Keep the 15 hp (runs smooth and quiet) at an additional VFD cost or change to a 7 1/2 hp at a reduced VFD cost however I'd have the purchase price of the new motor to factor in. From my research, it looks like this lathe was offered with a 7 1/2 hp motor from the factory which leads me to believe that's enough power to run the machine. I suppose true machine shops weren't concerned with the smaller motors due to having true three phase power and wanting maximum production rates. I'm not interested in wide open production or taking mammoth sized cuts. While working as a toolmaker, I did't run round work very often. The few jobs I did run were on a Leblond Regal 13" I believe, which was equipped with a 5 hp motor. Now... I understand this Monarch is a totally different animal than the Leblond.

So... keep the 15 or downsize to a 7 1/2 given that I'll not push this machine anywhere close to it's capacity?

Given that the lathe appears to be in nice condition and runs great I wouldn't fix what isn't broke. I would buy or put together a rpc. One and done...and making chips. I bought a pre-fabbed unit, 20Hp desco for 1200, eight years back and no complaints as of yet. You can put one together cheaper I would think. Plenty of guys here to help you in that route. An added plus you can power other equipment. Good luck...Hodge

Recently with the help of craigslist and Jim at Phasecraft I put together a 7.5 hp rpc for less than $300. That included the gas to go get the motor.