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1939 monarch ??

JMG

Aluminum
Joined
Aug 9, 2010
Found this for sale. Looks like a tach on it. Is this DC drive ? Anything else someone can tell me about it? Never saw a Monarch like it. Where's the speed control?
John
 

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Thanks John, I looked right by the red wheel. Many of these old Monarchs were m/g units weren't they? I wonder what the wheel really does? The thing that surprised me was the tach goes to 3500 rpm. Isn't that strange in a lathe of this vintage? Nothing on Tony's site that resembles this old girl.
John
 
Thanks John, I looked right by the red wheel. Many of these old Monarchs were m/g units weren't they? I wonder what the wheel really does? The thing that surprised me was the tach goes to 3500 rpm. Isn't that strange in a lathe of this vintage? Nothing on Tony's site that resembles this old girl.
John

Tony's isn't the horses' mouth on every thing

Really ancient variable speed motors had MOVING ELEMENTS adjusted by such rigs as we see here

Read all about it here: Principles of direct current machines : Langsdorf, Alexander Suss, 1877- : Free Download & Streaming : Internet Archive

Then there were electrical steps selected by such rigs

See remnants here: http://www.practicalmachinist.com/v...-big-leblonde-lathe-293183/?highlight=LeBlond
 
Found this for sale. Looks like a tach on it. Is this DC drive ? Anything else someone can tell me about it? Never saw a Monarch like it. Where's the speed control?
John
I'm not aware that Monarch made any big DC drive machines in that time period.

The "tach" looks more like a pressure gauge than anything else.

If you are going to look at the machine, take off the covers on the left end and have a look at the spindle drive motor. Get photos of any data plates that you find.

Cal
 
Thanks John!
Great reading material.
It's still for sale, maybe I need to run over and see this baby in person. Really bad idea :)
John
 
The "tach" looks more like a pressure gauge than anything else.

Cal

Hi Cal,
In another picture it definitely reads RPM.
The limited amount of shift levers made me think it must be variable speed of some sorts. It's a few miles away but might be worth the trip. If in OK shape it would be useful in the shop. I'm guessing about 6000 in weight??
John
 
Probably nearer 4500 for a 12 X 54

Hi Cal,
In another picture it definitely reads RPM.
The limited amount of shift levers made me think it must be variable speed of some sorts. It's a few miles away but might be worth the trip. If in OK shape it would be useful in the shop. I'm guessing about 6000 in weight??
John
 
This is definitely not a standard KK. Monarch was known for taking their standard lathes and modifying them for customers. It possible a customer wanted a variable speed lathe of this size. The modifications look clean like it was done at the factory. I would call Monarch Lathes LLC and see what they serial number will tell you. If it is a special lathe you might consider getting a manual from Monarch as it will have all the drawings relating to this lathe.

John
 
This is definitely not a standard KK. Monarch was known for taking their standard lathes and modifying them for customers. It possible a customer wanted a variable speed lathe of this size. The modifications look clean like it was done at the factory. I would call Monarch Lathes LLC and see what they serial number will tell you. If it is a special lathe you might consider getting a manual from Monarch as it will have all the drawings relating to this lathe.

John

+1 And you may NEED to buy the manual to get the info.

As far as I understand it, the fee for a manual isn't for just Xeroxing and punching for a generic ring-binder. It is to cover the cost of digging through old "dead tree" files to get the RIGHT info for any given SN or machine. That has to be a decidedly non-trivial exercise in archeology / detective work - given their age, and how MANY there are.
 
+1 And you may NEED to buy the manual to get the info.

As far as I understand it, the fee for a manual isn't for just Xeroxing and punching for a generic ring-binder. It is to cover the cost of digging through old "dead tree" files to get the RIGHT info for any given SN or machine. That has to be a decidedly non-trivial exercise in archeology / detective work - given their age, and how MANY there are.

But how amazing is it that we have the opportunity to get this documentation? Given the hundreds of defunct American machine tool makers, to still have even the ghost of Monarch available is terrific.

Having said that, I was hoping for more comprehensive data on my '45 NN when I paid for manuals for it. Still much better than nothing...
 
But how amazing is it that we have the opportunity to get this documentation? Given the hundreds of defunct American machine tool makers, to still have even the ghost of Monarch available is terrific.

Having said that, I was hoping for more comprehensive data on my '45 NN when I paid for manuals for it. Still much better than nothing...

Not sure if Monarch Machine Tool is actually "defunct", even yet today. I at one time tracked them post their ceasing to make lathes AT ALL, and motoring-off to Monarch Edlund to try their hand at drill presses. I "think" I recall the corporate ID - subsidiary to some other entity I've forgotten - keeping the name alive even after that, but I don't recall them still MAKING anything.

Monarch Lathe LP - our parts source - was, and is, a newer and different firm, of course. A small team of wise folks - some of them former Monarch Machine Tool staff, IF I understand the history - "made that happen" - by forming Monarch Lathe, LP and acquiring all those old files, drawings.. and whatever else they acquired - parts, jigs, models, patterns, fixtures - I personally know not - to position as the go-to for Monarch support. DS&G & Lodge & Shipley, too, for a time, if not still-yet..

Dunno if that came before or after the "Lucas Precision" novation (1990)

History of Lucas - Lucas Precision

... but it was long enough ago that retirement age - or well past such - must have come for the original folks, as since 2014, (same linked citation..) both are part of Fermat Group - who have a long history of their own as well (1902).

I'm just happy it was Czechs who still build and understand real Machine Tools who did the acquisition, AND NOT mere carpetbaggers who just move numbers about!
 
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Hey Guys,

I guess I'm the guy who bought this exact lathe, located in St. Cloud, MN. First off, I'm not a machinist, I'm in my early 20s, and have little experience with most machinery, so please have patience if I have a lot of questions and am slow to help with your guy's inquires on this exact piece. I purchased this piece as a starting lathe to "cut my teeth" on.

Now for what I do know. This lathe is in fact a DC drive. In the photos attached, you can see a silver electrical box with a DC voltmeter. My best assumption is that it is some sort of static phase converter, as the input voltage is 230VAC Single Phase. On the rear of the headstock is a larger electrical panel with numerous large relays and "DC Contactors". The Motor is a General Electric 3 Hp DC. Being that we are in the thick of Soybean harvest I have had little time to actually operate the lathe. However, everything does run and operate, but the leadscrew gear box is rather gummed up from lack of service. Also, the red wheel is, to my best knowledge, the voltage control for variable speed. Inside the base next to the motor is a triangle shaped contact plate that is attached to the mechanical adjustment from the red wheel. Here are some photos. Overall the lathe is in decent shape, wear on the ways and some dings here and there and a severe lack of maintenance. Before doing a quick cleaning the machine was covered in 5 gallons worth of chips. This machine also has a taper attachment but is missing the clamp block. Machine weighs 4,800 pounds, ran it across the elevator scale.

Dan20171010_203917.jpg20171010_203935.jpg20171010_204225.jpg20171008_095611.jpg20171010_171226.jpg
 
This lathe is in fact a DC drive. In the photos attached, you can see a silver electrical box with a DC voltmeter. My best assumption is that it is some sort of static phase converter, as the input voltage is 230VAC Single Phase.

Interesting.

The motor appears to be in the same "family" as the 3 HP "Large Frame" Reliance used in the later 10EE toolroom lathes.

You have more detective work to do when soya beans permit.

- Look for a Motor-Generator. It may resemble three motors, common shaft, each smaller than the one adjacent. The "inline exciter" early 10EE used the Reliance unitary Ward-Leonard technology MG, AKA "Fireplug", which dated from around 1934, IIRC, and would have been available to Monarch at the time.

While it is the "obvious" answer for that era and earlier for variable-speed DC drive, it wasn't the only answer.

Photos, and lots of them, with good light, please. I'd like to see where that handwheel's motion ends-up. Changing brush position may be the route they took for altering speed.

This critter could get more interesting, yet.
 
Bjertness Where are you at in ND? I am no sparky, but have had enough experience with both motor/generator 10ee's as well as the later modular drive models to know my way around them. If you aren't in the western half of the state, I would be willing to have a look and maybe can figure out what is going on inside your lathe, by the way I live near Valley City ND.

Dale
 
I am located just south of Fargo. I should be able to determine how the thing is wired. I just need to get a couple hours to do some digging. You're more than welcome to stop in and see it, I just don't have much time at the moment.

As far as the DC source generation, there must be some sort of rectifiers somewhere. Unless they are the size of a pop can and hidden inside the headstock (joking), there is no A.C. to D.C. motor generator. I will quickly look into the electrical panels tomorrow and see if I can identify an early version of a rectifier.

Thanks.
 
As far as the DC source generation, there must be some sort of rectifiers somewhere. Unless they are the size of a pop can and hidden inside the headstock (joking), there is no A.C. to D.C. motor generator. I will quickly look into the electrical panels tomorrow and see if I can identify an early version of a rectifier.

Thanks.

Even the old Seleniums - stacked round disks, square fins, MANY of each, and still being made NEW for the electroplating industry - could fit the cabinet for a mere 3-4 HP DC motor.

First Dee Cee lathe I ever used was on a conversion of a War One vintage former cone-head Niles, 50 HP motor, Morse rocker-link chain belt about ten inches wide.

No MG on that one, either. The power source wasn't in a cabinet on the lathe. Several cabinets inside a floor-bolted expanded metal cage several feet away, rather. More than one speed, plus FWD and REV "jog", but not continuously variable speed.
 
That is a VERY interesting drive system. One possibility is that you have a "universal" aka "series wound" DC motor, similar to most vacuum cleaner and hand tool motors. A series wound DC motor doesn't care if you feed it single-phase AC or DC current. It takes care of the phase shift needed to create a rotating magnetic field by the arrangement of the windings and commutator. It's probably not variable speed, but uses taps on the field windings to give you multiple speeds. We will know more when you show us some photos of the mechanism driven by the crank and the insides of the DC control panel.

Cal
 
It's probably not variable speed, but uses taps on the field windings to give you multiple speeds. We will know more when you show us some photos of the mechanism driven by the crank and the insides of the DC control panel.

"Interesting" indeed. And actually - it COULD be continuously variable speed.

Recall, if you will, pre-SCR theatre stage lighting controls that utilized a largish lever to pull an Iron core into and out of disengagement in a variable coupled reactor. I didn't even pay attention at the time as to whether it was a proper transformer, or a variable choke. 9100 Bill probably knows - he's far the more expert on such goods.

Even our modest High School stage, equipped late 1940's. early 1950's, had such. Two, IIRC. Wattage-wise, either would easily have had the C. O. Jones to operate a 3 HP motor rather than the array of "straw and blue" plus white incandescent lamps they did control.
 








 
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