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1948 Square Dial MG Rebuild

PLC

Aluminum
Joined
Jan 26, 2009
Location
Bay Area, CA
Well, I am steadily making progress on the lathe after I get home work. I have most of the interior stripped down to bare metal. Attacking it with wire wheels, both knotted and crimped, stripping wheels, random orbital sander, cabide scraper, methylene chloride, and 80 grit flap discs. The inside of the base has been particularly challenging as the old paint and primer has taken a strong bite into the rough casting. I keep reading the same rebuild threads over and over to keep myself motivated.

I have completed all the sanding and paint removal in the garage. I completed stripping most of the paint from the exterior using methylene chloride, however I have resorted to abrasives on the interior as is too rough for paint stripper/scraper combo. All the chemical stripping was completed with good ventilation (Intake fan at the man door entry to the garage, and exhaust at the garage apron).

Before moving to abrasives, I built a “tent” around the lathe with PVC and 6 mil visqueen to protect my other equipment from the cloud of cast iron dust I was about to create. One issue with this approach - it seems that start sweating at the thought of entering the tent. Being that there is limited air flow and I am the equivalent to a pile of damp, salty towels, the oxidation of the surface I have just sanded down to bare metal is greatly accelerated.


I am very new to the automotive painting world, but I was planning on using body filler (Evercoat Rage Xtreme) applied directly to the bare metal. The TDS for the filler says that it should NOT be used over phosphoric acid, which I was planning to use as rust preventative. My current plan is to lightly hand sand with 36 grit to remove the flash rust, tack off, clean with mineral spirits, and immediately add filler to the bare metal. I would work my way around the lathe over the course of several nights after work. Does this sound like a good plan? I really don’t want to have rust issues under the body filler.

I am also using BM Super Spec HP Aklyd Enamel and one gallon of the BM Super Spec HP Primer (P06). I was thinking that I could prime first (as the primer is not self-etching) and then put body filler over the primer, but I am not sure if I will run into adhesion issues. Evercoat recommends bare metal or epoxy primer as substrate for the Rage filler.

Also, does anyone have experience using the Super Spec HP Primer over the filler?

Thanks for all the help already. These forums have been invaluable in both information and motivation. I will try to get some pictures up tonight of my progress thus far.

I hastily created the title forgetting that the term "rebuild" insinuates that I will be regrinding and rescraping. I should have called it reconditioning or simply painting. However, I might build up the saddle with Moglice as bed has very little wear. Less than 0.0005" when measuring from the carriage to the tailstock way. The machine was rebuilt at some point in its life by a now defunct shop in San Leandro, CA. I will post a pic of the badge when I get home later. When I removed the carriage, didn't see any Rulon/Turcite on the ways. I am wondering if they reground the bed, but left the saddle alone. I have yet to check the distance from the leadscrew to the bottom of the saddle. The thing is darn straight though.
 
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Some Pictures of my tent

This after chemical stripping before grinding/sanding. I masked off the head stock before grinding.

monarch_tent.jpg
 
I was planning on using body filler (Evercoat Rage Xtreme) applied directly to the bare metal.
.
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I am also using BM Super Spec HP Aklyd Enamel and one gallon of the BM Super Spec HP Primer (P06). I was thinking that I could prime first (as the primer is not self-etching) and then put body filler over the primer, but I am not sure if I will run into adhesion issues. Evercoat recommends bare metal or epoxy primer as substrate for the Rage filler.

Also, does anyone have experience using the Super Spec HP Primer over the filler?
You may not want to hear this but... phosphate prep, Super Spec, and don't use filler AT ALL, is my advice.

Surely the casting won't be mirror-finish. Smooth, mostly, a bit "pebbly" here and there.. yah. So what?

Super-Spec will look right decent, zero filler anywhere, still be easy enough to clean.....and.. if you have to touch-up a wear pattern or the odd scrapes or dings, the spot painting years down the road won't look raggedy-assed, either.

I don't confuse my machine-tools with my "veteran" metallic mica slate grey XJ8-L Jaguar.

Put yer aestheic sense into a nicer ride, classier furniture, wooden tool chest, fancy shotgun, even a top-grade pair of shoes, nice tuxedo, and a collection of good silk ties.....and let the machinery do a different job.

Not raggedy-ugly. Don't take it that way. Just not posing as something it is not. "Diminishing Returns" thing. Many would say you've gone waay too OCD-overboard already with all those harsh (And dangerous. And expensive!) solvents on the guts of it. That's a damned "garage" down inside there, not a precision working surface. Not a 1936 Bugatti or Alvis Speed 20, either.

As to wear & corrections? 10EE carriage underside usually wears three, five - even more times as much as the ways it rides on. Softer material, under half as many sq inches of it, tilting forces, etc.

Deeper assessment of what was or was not done seems in order.

"Something" usually has to be added under the carriage vees (four surfaces, effectively, as they are relieved at top and towards center) and flat (two surfaces - center relief again) to raise it back up so as not to drag on leadscrew and surfacing power feed shaft.

If no plastic, no metal? Then probably no restoral work, either. UNLESS.. it was Monkey-patched by dropping the TS end of the leadscrew and shaft support. See if there is any evidence of that sort of shade-tree kludge.

If not even that? It could mean you are blessed with a 10EE that had so little wear it was not needed.

Wouldn't THAT be nice?

:)
 
Not raggedy-ugly. Don't take it that way. Just not posing as something it is not. "Diminishing Returns" thing. Many would say you've gone waay too OCD-overboard already with all those harsh (And dangerous. And expensive!) solvents on the guts of it. That's a damned "garage" down inside there, not a precision working surface. Not a 1936 Bugatti or Alvis Speed 20, either.

:)

Geez Bill, I am glad I didn't bring up the fact that I am doing filler/bodywork to the inside of the casting as well :)
 
I prime first and then apply filler over that...never had a problem in 30+ years. I am going to try Slick-Sand for the first time. It is a sprayable filler for rough terrain, we'll see how it goes. I like PPG products, DP-40 epoxy for the the prime and Deltron acrylic urethane for the base. I also have a professional downdraft booth and fresh air mask..btw. My philosophy is ...if your going to the trouble, might as well make it look good. There are pics of my lathe in blogs, Pinterest, etc, and it tickles me to no end. I have even had visits from "fans" to see it. And gosh darn, it makes beautiful, insanely accurate parts. So there you are.
 
Daryl, yeah I would love to see your lathe. That thing is a work of art. I have some an aunt and uncle in Plano after all... :)

Are you planning on spraying Slick Sand over primer or directly on bare metal? I know Evercoat has the Super Build 4:1 primer that can be supposedly used over bare metal.

With regards to PPG, I am in CA and I am not sure if I can get access to the same products. I know Xylene is unavailable here.

It was a little difficult to find the Super Spec products. I had to go to three different stores to get find it.

It might be worth a try to contact a distributor out here though. Only thing is that I already bought the Super Spec paint and primer ...
 
Geez Bill, I am glad I didn't bring up the fact that I am doing filler/bodywork to the inside of the casting as well :)

Sick puppy!

:)

But don't get to feeling TOO pregna.. 'er "privileged" just yet.

I was going to do that. And then add anechoic chamber rubber and fibre wedges to tame even the ripple filter's modest hum on accell or decell.

Already quiet SSD-powered 10EE transmogrified into a "stealth" Dee Cee drive 10EE...

Math didn't work out so hot, though. D'ya ken the wavelength of a 120 Hz SCR artifact at a mere 1100 FPS?

:(

As I closed in on that goal, Sound Pressure Level meter in-hand, I found I was probably not going to be able to hide the noise the spindle bearings make, either.

And then.. I bought a Cazeneuve.

Somewhere in a previous incarnation, that French gal must have been bred-down from the generations of air-raid sirens that once warned of Zeppelins or Heinkels making bombing raids over wartime France.

New challenges beckoned...

More seriously, for the garage/basement of a 10EE?

I was looking at a product used for custom automobile firewalls.

"Lizard Skin" ceramicized "paint".

Spray-On Insulation - Automotive Insulation Coatings | LizardSkin

They have an app note somewhere on using BOTH the heat and the sound deadening together.
 
Yes, I am shooting it over the primer. For me, always a good epoxy primer first. One thing I did do on the inside of the casting was shoot paintable rubberized sound deadening undercoat from a spray can and then shoot some rust oleum over it in a nice complementary color. Don't know how well it works as I didn't have a comparison, but it's pretty quiet at speed, the back gear is noisy even after a careful rebuild, but I think that is common.
 
Got it. Do you think I would have any trouble with using the Super Spec primer and adding filler on top? It is labeled as an epoxy and does not require a catalyst.

BTW the part about filler inside the base was a only a joke, I couldn’t help myself :). I was planning on using Durabak as Davee907 did on his. I am sanding down to bare metal in there however.

I am thinking about going the filler route simply because I have never done it before and I am up to learn or at least attempt it.
 
Got it. Do you think I would have any trouble with using the Super Spec primer and adding filler on top? It is labeled as an epoxy and does not require a catalyst.
Re-purpose your solvent "tent" or build a clean one - I like fibreglass wool roll insulation & plywood - stick a DeLonghi style oil-filled space heater in it, and "cook" your Benjamin Moore.

It needs cross-link building amongst the molecules to "cure". ISTR they publish the temps somewhere, 300 or 350 or so degrees F stick in my mind.

That gets it as hard and tough in a day or three as it otherwise might need a month to arrive at. Do NOT ..overdo it and blister it!

The most-used fillers are formulated to NOT lift most paints, but there, too, read the maker's info to see if the one chosen is meant to go on atop a paint with the B-M chemistry. Shouldn't be a problem.
BTW the part about filler inside the base was a only a joke, I couldn’t help myself :). I was planning on using Durabak as Davee907 did on his. I am sanding down to bare metal in there however.
I was more worried about the damned solvent exposure than anyone being OCD // anal about the insides. I cant get INTO mine, even empty due to old age stiffness, will probably soda-blast it with a wand in another few weeks as warmer, drier weather sets in and I can leave the 18-foot rollup open. Most of the gunk is already out, I Do have some areas abraded to bare metal, but not where it is in corners and such.

I am thinking about going the filler route simply because I have never done it before and I am up to learn or at least attempt it.

I'd save the precious time and do the trim in the sitting room or nicer kitchen cabinet doors or bathroom trim instead. You'll get more enjoyment, more hours of any given week, out of that - especially if you have family.

Any machine tool, it is the business area near the cut as gets nearly all your eyeball-time.

The paint in the corner of your vision is usually not a big deal after you start making chip ...unless it is that OSHA baby-shit-green that annoys the piss out of me even if in some other guy's shop 2,000 miles away with the doors shut! ANY other colour but safety-dull chalky orange is an improvement for my tastes.

:)

"Rock Moss Green" OTOH, I actually like. Not for a 10EE, but for when the Burke # 4 is ready for it. That's a 1904 or even older basic design originally, ergo as "period correct" as black ... in a way.
 
I was more worried about the damned solvent exposure than anyone being OCD // anal about the insides. I cant get INTO mine, even empty due to old age stiffness, will probably soda-blast it with a wand in another few weeks as warmer, drier weather sets in and I can leave the 18-foot rollup open. Most of the gunk is already out, but not where it is in corners and such.

Just to be clear on this, I don't want anyone getting the wrong idea. All work with solvents was completed BEFORE I built the tent. I had the man door open with a box fan serving as an intake and the garage door open with another box fan working as an exhaust fan. No solvents/caustics in the "tent," ... oh and hippies use the side door :)
 
I can only say what my experience is using DP-40, as that has been the only primer I have used in 30 years. Now years ago I had some Martin- Seymour green "wash" primer that went on like water, I used that as a subbase under some exotic PPG primer/filler combo that somebody had given me and that worked real well, but that was in another state and I have never seen Martin-Seymour paint here. And now I prefer to keep things simple. :)
 
I have never seen Martin-Seymour paint here.

Probably is nearby. Martin-Senour outside the trade channels hides on NAPA shelves, mostly.

My sad experience - probably my own damned fault, to be honest - it can damned well STAY there, too!

Second - or now THIRD - generation body shop of a HS classmate, it's the other way 'round. His late Dad onward there has been a sign on the building braggin' about his use of "Genuine Martin-Senour Paints" or wording to that effect.

:)
 
I can only say what my experience is using DP-40, as that has been the only primer I have used in 30 years.

Thanks Daryl. I am going to try calling a local jobber today to see if I at least have the option to purchase the PPG products in CA.
 
Thanks Daryl. I am going to try calling a local jobber today to see if I at least have the option to purchase the PPG products in CA.

The California elliptical galaxy. Jayzuss. Become a bowl of Bircher muesli if it was not already.

I remember stopping a rented Lincoln Town car ages ago so my Wife and I could GORGE on the fresh berries we had just picked at a DIY berry farm, adjacent state.

In sight a hundred feet away? The California state line agricultural border patrol gate. Choosing failing 2-lane blacktop altrouting had not helped. We were on a known smuggling route.

What we could not eat went on the ground.

Getting aholt of paint and chemicals that still WORK must be a nightmare now that a Starbucks cawfee causes cancer.. in the State of Kaliforicyah, anyway.

Next up, they solve their chronic water shortage by simply outlawing the damned stuff, naming all male children after that famous dehydrated Frenchman: "Pee Air", was it?

This trend continues, adjacent states will have to start charging entrance fees of the escapees and running mental health entry screening even so.

:(
 
Yep, it adds a whole 'nother level of complexity to what is already a confusing subject to complete beginner.
 
Well, just got off the phone with a local shop, and they said that DP-40 is available, but it is CA special compliant blend :rolleyes5: Cost 1 gallon primer + 2 quarts hardener = $470.00. Deltron is non-compliant. They only stock OMNI.

I am planning on calling Evercoat to see what they say about applying the filler over the Super Spec primer. If not I will probably just go over small sections (sand, tack off, wipe with mineral spirits, and quickly apply filler direct to metal) at a time.
 
yep, it is a bit cheaper here, but still expensive. Just gotta do what ya gotta do. Might try Shop Line products. alot cheaper than the name brand. Used to be made by PPG, but not now.
 
Well, just got off the phone with a local shop, and they said that DP-40 is available, but it is CA special compliant blend :rolleyes5: Cost 1 gallon primer + 2 quarts hardener = $470.00. Deltron is non-compliant. They only stock OMNI.

I am planning on calling Evercoat to see what they say about applying the filler over the Super Spec primer. If not I will probably just go over small sections (sand, tack off, wipe with mineral spirits, and quickly apply filler direct to metal) at a time.

Well can't fight the regulations on the stuff whilst it is still in a container.

But at those prices?

Wonder what it would cost to trailer the lathe to a shop in another state, bring it back as done-deal affordable paint of choice all applied, dried, cured and spiffy?

Would California want it sandblasted back to bare metal to let it back across the state line?

Not kidding. Do the math.

And realize the"California Compliant" coatings are generally shit-lousy substitutes, high price or no, and will be found worse offenders than what they replaced in the fullness of time, same as their Politicians.
 








 
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