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1951 10ee M/G New owner issues- spindle won't turn on, feed belt

crzypete

Hot Rolled
Joined
Jun 8, 2003
Location
New York State
After 19 years of lusting over these lathes and never having the right combination of space/ money/ or opportunity, I have finally joined the club!

I purchased this 1951 M/G from the classifieds here on PM and was able to retrieve it yesterday. The known issue was a feed problem, but I think I have the cause of that figured out in that the thin flat belt that drives the feed is slipping as it is loose and possibly ready to be replaced. The one thread I found about this did not have absolute ideas as to what people were doing as a replacement. I will tension the existing belt, and see how that works, but what solutions have people found?

Next and most importantly, I cannot get the spiel to turn. I put power to the machine and press the start button and the Gen set starts right up. But when I try to engage the spindle, there is nothing. This could be something easy like operator error, as I am unfamiliar with the lathe, but it's killing me to be so close and not get it running!

More background, I did not run this when I bought it, but the seller, who I trust said it ran fine and told me about the feed issues.


Here are some pictures
monarch - 1.jpg
monarch - 2.jpg
monarch - 3.jpg
 
I guess people have found sources for the feed belt, including
Monarch them selves?
I found a poly-vee belt that was the correct length, but too wide. I cut off 2 or 3 Vee's with a sharp utility knife to narrow it, flipped it inside out so the smooth outside rubber runs on the flat pulleys. Works very well. And the grippy outside rubber finish does not slip. Low cost as well.
 
Next and most importantly, I cannot get the spiel to turn. I put power to the machine and press the start button and the Gen set starts right up. But when I try to engage the spindle, there is nothing. This could be something easy like operator error, as I am unfamiliar with the lathe, but it's killing me to be so close and not get it running!

Check the ELSR switch on the tailstock end of the lathe, it has LEFT/NEUTRAL/RIGHT and is used in threading operations. Make sure that it's on "RIGHT" (for right hand threading, of course) as the NEUTRAL position disables the drive for when you're setting up the ELSR.

(weird - I didn't see the other reply.)
 
Last edited:
I'm thrilled to have it running. But have many more questions!

I was also able to tighten the feed belt and it seems to be fine, so perhaps I don't need to replace it immediately.

Firstly, is there anywhere to read more about the motor-generator set-up I am eager to learn more about what is going on down there. I guess I am surprised to find the two motors belted together as in my first pictures. I thought there would be two nose to nose to make the gen set and then the DC motor they were powering, but there seems to be 4?

Next, it has the taper attachment, missing the clamp as best as I can tell, but also maybe missing more on the far end? Here is a picture of what is there. Complete?

monarch2 - 1.jpg
 
Firstly, is there anywhere to read more about the motor-generator set-up I am eager to learn more about what is going on down there. I guess I am surprised to find the two motors belted together as in my first pictures. I thought there would be two nose to nose to make the gen set and then the DC motor they were powering, but there seems to be 4?

I'm just a newbie on the 10ee, but I did sleep at a Holiday Inn last night! As explained to me the AC motor and Generator is shafted together and is the unit on the bottom. The Exciter is the unit sitting on top and belted to the m/g on the bottom.

There is a ton of information on this site but it takes some digging to get to it all. I'm evaluating a machine the same year model as yours right now and going through most of the same steps of learning that you are. http://www.practicalmachinist.com/v...sket-case-monarch-10ee-rebuild-thread-332136/
 
Next, it has the taper attachment, missing the clamp as best as I can tell, but also maybe missing more on the far end? Here is a picture of what is there. Complete?

You're missing the vernier dial assembly from the vernier housing. Harry put up some pages describing his copy here:

http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/monarch-lathes/wreck-update-146913-post1325956/#post1325956

Hopefully all that's missing is the worm & shaft + dial, but you won't know until you get in there.
 
Thanks for the links. I'll definitely be pursuing one of those clamps.

Also I sporadically followed along Harry's wreck rebuild constantly in awe of his skill. I had forgotten about the taper attachment fabrication. Mine looks to be mostly there, Looks like all I need is the worm and a dial. Is the real one a graduated dial? I took some pics of what I have.
monarch3 - 1.jpg
monarch3 - 2.jpg

So the motor on top is the exciter? I keep seeing it mentioned, what does it do?

I have sporadically read the Monarch Forum for years, and way more intensely this past week, There is an amazing amount of information. I wish there was somehow a table of contents!

The lever to allow feed speed changes was broken off within. I pulled it apart and started to make a replacement on my lathe. So nice to be using it.
monarch3 - 3.jpg

Another project that needs doing is adjusting the clutch on the feed levers. The long feed is all the way down when it is engaged, the cross at maybe 45º. I read about doing it somewhere in my advance search of possible causes of feed problems.

Speaking of which, the lathe is feeding great by simply tightening the belt. I may not even have to replace the belt.

Thanks for the continued input and help!

Peter
 
So the motor on top is the exciter? I keep seeing it mentioned, what does it do?

It is being used as a DC generator, not 'motor', though with Dinosaur Current, there is a high level of interchangeability. Look up how "Black Jack" Pershing's 1914 Dodge Brothers Mexican expedition touring cars also used their dynamo as starter.

For the 10EE, even at a much later stage of history, we mostly have to make 'educated guesses' as to how it came about.

- When Sundstand had to go off to supply scarce hydraulics for the weapons of war, Reliance had only recently (1934, or 1936, forget which..) 'integrated' the classical late 1800's "Ward-Leonard" drive into a one-shaft, one enclosure unit after long years where everyone had mounted the separate motor & generators on skids, plates, or rails and coupled their independent shafts. 'Kit' building of that sort always took more space and usually cost more money.

- the famous Reliance 'fireplug' unitized-style MG was adapted to become the 'inline exciter' 10EE drive. Bigger guess, from so many seen with burnt out exciter section, is that it had been OK for an elevator, NOT so OK for a 10EE, where it overheated.

- The "piggyback" exciter that replaced that was physically larger AND better-placed to run cooler. As importantly, a larger, separately mounted exciter gave Reliance a chance to make it more useful.

The "piggyback" exciter also carries a larger part of the compensation for varying loads than the inline exciter had space to provide.

The 'basic' function of either exciter AKA "secondary" DC generator, was threefold:

- provide semi-stable 115 VDC for 'control' operation. The coil power for the contactors, mostly.

- provide 115 VDC current-limited (or NOT) by one of the rheostats to the DC final-drive motor's field , thus providing for relatively low-Amperage control of Field Weakening above 'base' RPM.

- provide 115 VDC current-limited (or NOT) by the other rheostat to the larger primary DC generator's field , thus controlling at relatively low Amperage control of its higher-Amperage & Voltage output power to the Armature, hence motor RPM, 'base' RPM and below.

We measure all these as Voltages, 'coz it is EASIER.

But it is current, as "Ampere turns", and the control of that current, that actually makes the shafts go-round at the torque and RPM we choose.
 
Monarchist, I read that this morning with not enough coffee and was out of my league. I have read it a few more times since and it is beginning to sink in. I very much appreciate the time it took to write and the information provided. Can you talk about what the primary DC generator is bringing to the equation? My DC knowledge is almost nil.

I have been running the lathe and am absolutely in love. I should have figured out how to get one years ago! Got the lever repaired and made a square wrench for the D1-3 spindle.

Does anyone know the diameter that the worm is supposed to be on the taper attachment micro-adjuster? Harry listed the pitch as 32 dp, but there are several diameters available. I'd much rather buy one if possible.

Peter
 
Monarchist, I read that this morning with not enough coffee and was out of my league. I have read it a few more times since and it is beginning to sink in. I very much appreciate the time it took to write and the information provided. Can you talk about what the primary DC generator is bringing to the equation? My DC knowledge is almost nil.

Ummh.. well.. as with that 'very special' pig with the wooden leg, you don't have to 'eat' nor read this 'all at once'. Nor at all, actually..

:)

Monarch was 'customer', Reliance Electric and Engineering was 'designer' to their needs.

Hard to tell from a distance which of them decided what to call stuff, but the 'exciter' is a DC generator and CALLED 'exciter' because its output power is used to 'excite' the FIELD on both the final-drive motor and what I have called the 'primary' DC generator. it also powers the contactors AND ta da... provides its OWN excitation power.

*I* call the 'other' DC generator the 'primary' so I do not forget which one is on first base. Monarch/Reliance just called it 'the' DC generator. More usefully, it drives the Armature of the final-drive motor, nothing else EXCEPT that some 'sensitive' control relays 'look at' its Voltage to determine how - and when - they should behave.

Now the reason for what might seem like monkey-motion.. is that the stronger the field on a DC shunt wound motor, the more torque it has. Stronger electromagnetic field is functionally similar to deeper 'notches' to grab aholt of if it were a ratchet.

Weakening the field reduces the 'grab' as if notches were shallower. Result is sort of like gradually turning a staircase with big, notchy treads into a flatter and flatter ramp. Person can run faster up a ramp because yah don't have to swing yer feet up out of the deep pockets a set of stairs represent.

One dasn't expect to have as good a grip on a ramp as on a staircase, and of course the 10EE does NOT have as much (reserve) torque when high-up in the Field weakened range, so it is for smaller diameters, lighter cuts, even polishing operations.

On DC elevators, f'rinstance, the weakened Field range might be used for rapid positioning of an EMPTY lift cabin to get it to the floor where waiting passengers had pressed a 'Call' button. What with the counterweights and no mass of passengers, not as much energy was required.

Same again in reverse with generators instead of motors.

The stronger the Field on a DC generator, the tighter the grip it has on whatever is turning its input shaft. Tighter that grip, the greater the amount of power it can grab and convert from mechanical force to output as greater current and voltage.

So... altering Field power on either a motor or generator has a multiplier effect. We can use that for a form of 'amplification', where small control inputs produce great changes in output.

Leverage, if you will.

The nominal 3 HP large frame Reliance final-drive motor has a 230 VDC Armature at a Full Load Amp rating around 12 Amps. That's 2,760 Volt-Amps or 2.7 KVA.

Worse, Monarch/Reliance 'hot rodded' that motor's Armature Voltage above 'nameplate' to improve reserve when in Field-Weakened range.

PM members have put meters on them and found 250 VDC, 255 VDC, even 260 VDC as not unusual. Higher the voltage, the greater the current flow, the higher the VA or KVA.

I rate it as much as a 4.6 HP motor, not a 3 HP, before it starts to get to where it might do harm to itself. The MG's 'primary' DC generator is 'matched' to the need, cannot push it into the danger zone, so no risk of harm.

A third-party solid-state DC drive certainly CAN push it there, which is how and why I know and care.

If the Reliance Engineer who designed that motor was looking down from on-high, he might have a big SE grin on his face and say:

Well actually.. it has the reserve of a 6 horse.

You have noticed they've been running since a looong time even before we started selling them to Monarch ... and it is really, really hard to find any that have burnt out!

Now . .let's back into what sort of Wattage rating a variable resistor would need to have to DIRECTLY control that power.

Any energy it wants to deny to the motor for use as rotating power must be shed some other way.

As HEAT.

In order to have a reasonable reserve, we'd have to start with resistors rated for somewhere between three and five THOUSAND Watts. We'd need forced-air or even pumped-liquid cooling to make that work at even unreasonably large sizes. Worse - we'd be adding to a factory electrical bill times a whole row of lathes, up to three shifts a day. Bad enough as it is. A 10EE MG wastes close to fifty percent of what it takes out of the wall. An SSD solid-state DC drive wastes mebbe five percent, doesn't even want a tiny cooling fan.

Back to the 'leverage' of controlling the FIELD instead:

- by altering Field strength on what I have called the 'primary' DC generator, we simply have it produce higher or lower power at its output. That gives the final-drive motor a varying ration with NO extra waste as heat in its own circuit. The 'heavy' one.

The Field circuit at the other end of that 'leverage' operates with only 115 DC at 1.3 to 2 or so Amps. Now our resistor/rheostat has to dissipate only a portion of 150 to 200 Watts, worst-case. And they are not run at 'worst case' anyway.

Thats's still a rather stout resistor. The Ohmites in an MG-era 10EE are big bastards.
But only ten or twenty percent the size and waste heat they would need to be if used 'directly'.

And ... it is also important that they DO waste less. That's what a Ward-Leonard system is all about.

Durable and affordable leverage with simple components.

Not impossible there are Ward-Leonard systems on hoists and lifts more than a hundred years in service somewhere.

WiaD and Modular drives add the GREATER 'leverage' or amplification of hollow-state, AKA 'vacuum' tubes. They can get the waste in their controls down to under 50 Watts and still have about 100% safety reserve.

Solid-state DC Drives use "operational amplifiers" for so much amplification they must be strapped-down, and get by with TWO Watt or less control potentiometers.

However .. you just ain't gonna see that hundred-year simple maintenance lifespan with the more fragile Vee Eff Dee and its capacitor bank, nor even the far simpler and more rugged no-big-caps-atall SCR/Thyristor drives.

If nothing else, their fragile control electronics tend to get zapped every now and then by a 'near-miss' lightning strike a mile or three down the grid...

Or.. as close as my fat-fingering a direct short onto an SSD 507 in use as Field supply at a couple of Amps, six Amp max, and blowing the Silicon brains out of the 16 A SSD 514C a few inches away... on the same AC line.

If you want to make chips, not scratch yerself bald-headed nor pay invoices to electronics houses, there is a lot to be said for simpler MG power.

:)
 
Ummh.. well.. as with that 'very special' pig with the wooden leg, you don't have to 'eat' nor read this 'all at once'. Nor at all, actually..

:)

Monarch was 'customer', Reliance Electric and Engineering was 'designer' to their needs.

Hard to tell from a distance which of them decided what to call stuff, but the 'exciter' is a DC generator and CALLED 'exciter' because its output power is used to 'excite' the FIELD on both the final-drive motor and what I have called the 'primary' DC generator. it also powers the contactors AND ta da... provides its OWN excitation power.

*I* call the 'other' DC generator the 'primary' so I do not forget which one is on first base. Monarch/Reliance just called it 'the' DC generator. More usefully, it drives the Armature of the final-drive motor, nothing else EXCEPT that some 'sensitive' control relays 'look at' its Voltage to determine how - and when - they should behave.

Now the reason for what might seem like monkey-motion.. is that the stronger the field on a DC shunt wound motor, the more torque it has. Stronger electromagnetic field is functionally similar to deeper 'notches' to grab aholt of if it were a ratchet.

Weakening the field reduces the 'grab' as if notches were shallower. Result is sort of like gradually turning a staircase with big, notchy treads into a flatter and flatter ramp. Person can run faster up a ramp because yah don't have to swing yer feet up out of the deep pockets a set of stairs represent.

One dasn't expect to have as good a grip on a ramp as on a staircase, and of course the 10EE does NOT have as much (reserve) torque when high-up in the Field weakened range, so it is for smaller diameters, lighter cuts, even polishing operations.

On DC elevators, f'rinstance, the weakened Field range might be used for rapid positioning of an EMPTY lift cabin to get it to the floor where waiting passengers had pressed a 'Call' button. What with the counterweights and no mass of passengers, not as much energy was required.

Same again in reverse with generators instead of motors.

The stronger the Field on a DC generator, the tighter the grip it has on whatever is turning its input shaft. Tighter that grip, the greater the amount of power it can grab and convert from mechanical force to output as greater current and voltage.

So... altering Field power on either a motor or generator has a multiplier effect. We can use that for a form of 'amplification', where small control inputs produce great changes in output.

Leverage, if you will.

The nominal 3 HP large frame Reliance final-drive motor has a 230 VDC Armature at a Full Load Amp rating around 12 Amps. That's 2,760 Volt-Amps or 2.7 KVA.

Worse, Monarch/Reliance 'hot rodded' that motor's Armature Voltage above 'nameplate' to improve reserve when in Field-Weakened range.

PM members have put meters on them and found 250 VDC, 255 VDC, even 260 VDC as not unusual. Higher the voltage, the greater the current flow, the higher the VA or KVA.

I rate it as much as a 4.6 HP motor, not a 3 HP, before it starts to get to where it might do harm to itself. The MG's 'primary' DC generator is 'matched' to the need, cannot push it into the danger zone, so no risk of harm.

A third-party solid-state DC drive certainly CAN push it there, which is how and why I know and care.

If the Reliance Engineer who designed that motor was looking down from on-high, he might have a big SE grin on his face and say:



Now . .let's back into what sort of Wattage rating a variable resistor would need to have to DIRECTLY control that power.

Any energy it wants to deny to the motor for use as rotating power must be shed some other way.

As HEAT.

In order to have a reasonable reserve, we'd have to start with resistors rated for somewhere between three and five THOUSAND Watts. We'd need forced-air or even pumped-liquid cooling to make that work at even unreasonably large sizes. Worse - we'd be adding to a factory electrical bill times a whole row of lathes, up to three shifts a day. Bad enough as it is. A 10EE MG wastes close to fifty percent of what it takes out of the wall. An SSD solid-state DC drive wastes mebbe five percent, doesn't even want a tiny cooling fan.

Back to the 'leverage' of controlling the FIELD instead:

- by altering Field strength on what I have called the 'primary' DC generator, we simply have it produce higher or lower power at its output. That gives the final-drive motor a varying ration with NO extra waste as heat in its own circuit. The 'heavy' one.

The Field circuit at the other end of that 'leverage' operates with only 115 DC at 1.3 to 2 or so Amps. Now our resistor/rheostat has to dissipate only a portion of 150 to 200 Watts, worst-case. And they are not run at 'worst case' anyway.

Thats's still a rather stout resistor. The Ohmites in an MG-era 10EE are big bastards.
But only ten or twenty percent the size and waste heat they would need to be if used 'directly'.

And ... it is also important that they DO waste less. That's what a Ward-Leonard system is all about.

Durable and affordable leverage with simple components.

Not impossible there are Ward-Leonard systems on hoists and lifts more than a hundred years in service somewhere.

WiaD and Modular drives add the GREATER 'leverage' or amplification of hollow-state, AKA 'vacuum' tubes. They can get the waste in their controls down to under 50 Watts and still have about 100% safety reserve.

Solid-state DC Drives use "operational amplifiers" for so much amplification they must be strapped-down, and get by with TWO Watt or less control potentiometers.

However .. you just ain't gonna see that hundred-year simple maintenance lifespan with the more fragile Vee Eff Dee and its capacitor bank, nor even the far simpler and more rugged no-big-caps-atall SCR/Thyristor drives.

If nothing else, their fragile control electronics tend to get zapped every now and then by a 'near-miss' lightning strike a mile or three down the grid...

Or.. as close as my fat-fingering a direct short onto an SSD 507 in use as Field supply at a couple of Amps, six Amp max, and blowing the Silicon brains out of the 16 A SSD 514C a few inches away... on the same AC line.

If you want to make chips, not scratch yerself bald-headed nor pay invoices to electronics houses, there is a lot to be said for simpler MG power.

:)

Yes, but who wants to listen to it.......
 
Yes, but who wants to listen to it.......

ME? Or the MG?

:)

I'm clear over the hill somewhere on the internet behind a PM 'ignore' button.

The MG?

Actually, if one didn't mind running a 300 Volt class mixed AC and Dee Cee circuit, the noisy parts could be in a bunker - or just a sound-insulted "doghouse" in the back garden.
 
Monarchist, I've been meaning to thank you for the elaborate description. It is really still sinking in for me. (way over my head, but I'm learning)

I'm curious if anyone has changed the direction of the on off switch? I am thinking I would prefer it to move up to rotate forwards. That would match my cincinnati lathe and would seem more instinctive to turn off quickly. If not a terrible idea, where would it be best to reverse these wires?


Pete
 
I LOVE the low roar of my 10EE. Makes me feel like I'm behind the controls of a jet fighter!

I have very good hearing and the sound isn't uncomfortable to me. It's no problem talking when the MG is running. That said, I suspect that most of the noise comes from the primitive fan on the end of the AC section. (Seriously, it looks like they used rotors from WWII air-raid sirens.) One day I hope to have time to look into a better fan design. One option is to remove the MG's fan and install a electric blower to cool the MG set.

Cal
 
I LOVE the low roar of my 10EE. Makes me feel like I'm behind the controls of a jet fighter!

I have very good hearing and the sound isn't uncomfortable to me. It's no problem talking when the MG is running. That said, I suspect that most of the noise comes from the primitive fan on the end of the AC section. (Seriously, it looks like they used rotors from WWII air-raid sirens.) One day I hope to have time to look into a better fan design. One option is to remove the MG's fan and install a electric blower to cool the MG set.

Cal

There's a Swedish firm that makes high-end extraction fans for upper-crust residential kitchen and restaurant use.

Look for 'backward curved' impeller blades, even golf-ball hemi-bumps ON the blades for vortex generation, and it is uncanny how much air can be moved for low-noise compared to the legacy El Cheapo fans.

Sometimes, the blades alone show-up on the 'bay cheaply as well.

SSD's with ripple-filters, Armature AND Field, are so quiet I'm tempted to dig-out a .wav or midi file I have somewhere of a heavy Diesel, cold, being coaxed to life and into warm-up idle.

Used to use it during the boot-up delay of IBM Warp Server Advanced run for desktops..

"Coupla tubes, and a thousand cubes, of nine-teen FORTY-EIGHT Peterbilt.." comes to mind as those little bitty hairs, back of yer neck, sorta stand straight up....

:D
 








 
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