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1951 "Basket Case" Monarch 10ee rebuild thread.

swatkins

Titanium
Joined
Jul 24, 2011
Location
Navasota / Whitehall Texas
I am currently testing a 10ee to see if it's fate is the scrap heap or a nice home in my shop. My friend Andy purchased the machine in order to transfer the taper attachment to a newer 1990's 10ee and is giving me the older machine in a trade.

The machine is, as best I can determine, a 1951 MG 10ee square dial equipped with ELSR and an air powered collet closer. The serial number is stamped on the way and matches an aluminum plate that was installed where the standard Monarch Information plate, now removed, is supposed to attach. There are also some smaller plates attached in that general area but they are all painted over. Also has an ID tag from Sikorsky.

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The machine has already won the " The Worst Paint Job " award and is now competing in the "Worst Worn Machine Brought Back To Life" category. .. Stay tuned to see the results.

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I've spent the weekend removing transformers and wiring that were used to " clumsily " make the 220 volt coil work on 440. Then I used 5 cans of electrical parts degreaser to clean the years of caked on grease, oil and dirt off of the motors, generator, contactors and switch panels.

The drive motors now start up on 220 volts and sound pretty good with no sparking from them and just a little sparking from the forward and reverse contactors. The drive is not reaching much over 1000 RPMs so I have some more reading and checking to do... With it running I can at least evaluate the machine to determine it's fate...

On the head stock end the drive belts are a little loose and have worn deep grooves in both aluminum tensioning pulleys. When the machine is turning the belts are not even riding in the grooves so I'm not sure how they got that way. I need to buy or make new pulleys.

First question....
I have the main AC motor rotating in the correct direction according to the motor's rotation arrow. The controls for making the spindle rotate counterclockwise, when looking at the tail stock end of the spindle, seem to be backwards from the YouTube videos I have seen. This has the ELSR controls and there are two ways to engage the spindle. The first one is a lever attached to the lower control rod for the apron. When I raise the lever up towards the head stock it puts the spindle into reverse. Is this correct? lowering the lever to the middle stops the rotation and all the way down spins the spindle forward. I realize that turning the ELSR dial changes directions but the only way to make it rotate the way I think is right is to leave it in left thread...

Second questions also has to do with this lever. I find it is really sloppy when it is moved. There are no detents and finding the stop position is really difficult. In it's current condition this makes the lathe very dangerous to operate. I've opened up the end of the ELSR box and observed the micro switches in operation. To me it looks like there is no way these switches provide a detent for the lever and rod and there must be another mechanism that gives the lever more control... Also tried using the lever mounted to the apron for control and it is even worse. What should I look for to find either worn parts or adjustments for this lever?
 
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The fuse should be sized to protect the wire. What is the ampacity of the wire feeding the lathe? There should be some other protection for motor overload.

I know this wasn't the intent of your question but it's the way I've been schooled.

Stuart
 
I have thirty amp fuses in my 1955 wiad

i had twenty amp ones that kept blowing

I called monarch. they said 30 amp nos fuses in the disconnect
 
Got the motor running for a while this afternoon and I played with the feeds..

So far I have the top rod spinning but the half nut lever will not move... All the other levers on the apron are working.

The lever that engages the middle rod will not move to the right and the rod just free spins. I'm almost certain I had that rod moving this weekend because I did feed the carriage and cross feed.. Any super secret methods to make the lever move to the right?

I noticed there was a small wooden shim between the two shift levers on the lower left of the head stock, one of them has the speed control going through it. The belt or gear drive wants to jump out of gear when it's in belt drive and I think that wedge is there to keep it in place. There are linkage adjustments that can be adjusted but I'm not sure if that would help the lathe stay in gear without the wedge. I guess it's worth a shot.... Any thoughts on this?
 
Got the motor running for a while this afternoon and I played with the feeds..

So far I have the top rod spinning but the half nut lever will not move... All the other levers on the apron are working.

The lever that engages the middle rod will not move to the right and the rod just free spins. I'm almost certain I had that rod moving this weekend because I did feed the carriage and cross feed.. Any super secret methods to make the lever move to the right?

I noticed there was a small wooden shim between the two shift levers on the lower left of the head stock, one of them has the speed control going through it. The belt or gear drive wants to jump out of gear when it's in belt drive and I think that wedge is there to keep it in place. There are linkage adjustments that can be adjusted but I'm not sure if that would help the lathe stay in gear without the wedge. I guess it's worth a shot.... Any thoughts on this?

You'll want to get more familiar with the selectors and interlocks, spindle, gearbox, AND on-apron.

As to the reduction gearbox, linkage adjustment should do it unless the detent at the gearbox is pudding.

The rubber(ish) mounts - under the mounting plate, not the motor, which is hard-shimmed - are probably compressed to about a quarter of their original thickness. Neoprene sheet goods, conveyor-belting cuts - wotever, could be used to make new ones.

Or Monarch Lathe LP may already stock ready-made ones they have had fabbed to spec.
 
Make sure you move the push-pull knob that changes direction of the carriage feed. It needs to be in the middle or halfway position; not all in and not all out. When I first got my 10EE was dumb enough to think my half nut lever was just stuck from no use, and kept pushing on it...then realized my folly. :eek: I was pretty mad at myself.
 
Competing in "Worst Worn Machine brought back to life" ..Ha yer not even in the ballpark grasshopper. I challenge anybody to find one worse than mine, as it was. When your apron wheel will revolve almost one full turn before moving the apron...not thats worn. :)
 
Competing in "Worst Worn Machine brought back to life" ..Ha yer not even in the ballpark grasshopper. I challenge anybody to find one worse than mine, as it was. When your apron wheel will revolve almost one full turn before moving the apron...not thats worn. Or a crosslide backlash of what .150 thou. :)

How about a tailstock 'so far gone' you cannot even TOUCH it?

Even if the one off my '44 is still somewhere within these Continental United States, it could be over 2500 miles away, and my arms just ain't that long...

:)

Hoping a three-way trade sorts that, as I haven't made a mould, nor pounded a drag of Michigan green in close to 60 years, even could I find a decent foundry..
 
Steve if it will only turn 1000 rpm Try it in reverse using your reverse speed. You may have a bad field weakening ohmite potentiometer. You can ohm out your potentiometers to see if you have an open spot in the winding or bad wiper on the variable contact. Bob
 
Steve if it will only turn 1000 rpm Try it in reverse using your reverse speed. You may have a bad field weakening ohmite potentiometer. You can ohm out your potentiometers to see if you have an open spot in the winding or bad wiper on the variable contact. Bob

IF you have a major dif, FWD/ REV, see also the several PM threads as to 'timing' your brush-holder.

Cleaning up the commutator and fitting new brushes is probably on the menu as well. They are Helwig Carbon items (and at least two other makers long defunct..), but not commonly stocked.

Monarch Lathes LP charges only a modest premium over Helwig direct ordering, but you get the RIGHT ONES, 'coz they know things we do not and Helwig dasn't have to worry about, so I call it value for money.

Good for 2,000 power-on hours per set, typically, so you won't likely wear them out until the 10EE is chunking a full 8-hour shift, all week, then about one year's worth of life.
 
Competing in "Worst Worn Machine brought back to life" ..Ha yer not even in the ballpark grasshopper. I challenge anybody to find one worse than mine, as it was. When your apron wheel will revolve almost one full turn before moving the apron...not thats worn. :)

Well...... Mine is being held on with two washers that make it so it can engage the shaft! :D
 
Monarchist He has 2 sets of pots one for forward and a separate set for reverse

They'll need looked at, too.

We still don't skip the basics, either, on any machine of that age and undetermined provenance.

Mark S. went through more than a year of trying to get his Modular working smoothly, only tore down the 5 HP Kinamatic and found a badly BENT brush holder, angled brush tip, damaged commutator when the new SSD drive had taken away all other possible crutches as to source of an RPM-band dependent vibration.

Always a 'gotcha' or three hiding out in these Old Iron and fossilised electron critters. Gotta play whackamole as you go.

:)
 
Steve if it will only turn 1000 rpm Try it in reverse using your reverse speed. You may have a bad field weakening ohmite potentiometer. You can ohm out your potentiometers to see if you have an open spot in the winding or bad wiper on the variable contact. Bob

In reverse it is controlled by the pot on the back of the machine.. It can go pretty fast but since the tach will not read in reverse I can't give a rpm.
 
In reverse it is controlled by the pot on the back of the machine.. It can go pretty fast but since the tach will not read in reverse I can't give a rpm.

Cheap HF handheld 'laser' tacho will help. Just the human EAR and the sound of it should give you an idea.

As to brush timing, there is a method with a meter and small AC 'doorbell' transformer where one seeks peaks in armature to field 'coupling' as they align close or not-quite-so. Motor is isolated from the normal Armature and Field connections to do that, so pot settings won't be a factor.

I just eyeball the spark size and use a hand-held Biddle mechanical tacho to set the bias in RPM I want, FWD vs REV. Your FWD and REV pots will have to be in equal balance for the spark test one ,as it is done with the lathe under power, and at 'base' RPM eg: nameplate 230 VDC Armature setting, nominally.

Not to forget - the nameplate 'base' RPM is at full rated load - something hard to duplicate without a dynamometer - so one WILL have a higher unloaded RPM.
 








 
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