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4/1954 10ee modified electrics questions

ShawFab

Aluminum
Joined
Mar 28, 2014
I have made small leap in quality from my Jet 9x20 and have aquired a 1945 10ee and what may be the original matching cabinet. I have some questions about the electrical system as I think it has been modified from factory. Shouldn't I have another motor on top running off of that pully? And what is the huge variable resistor for?


This is also mounted to the back of the lathe

This is what the cover says


Really what I need to know is if I can convert it to single phase or do I have to run a converter and if I have to run a converter can it be a static unit? I realize rotory converters are the best option but I already have the static unit and I don't want to buy a rotary if I am going to have to rip the electrics out of the lathe and start over. If the system in place works I don't want to let the smoke out of it if I can help it. Thanks guys! -Ben
 
You need lots more pictures for us to know what you really have here.

The huge variable resistor is unhooked, the leads are wrapped around the shaft under the knob.

Bill
 
I noticed that it was not wired. What could it be for? Pictures I can do sir. I'll get some more when I get out to the shop.



This is the transformer in the box mounted to the back of the lathe

The machine itself

I'll get some more detail stuff when I get out there. Thanks for the help!
 
Box on the back of the lathe. It's up against the wall so I'm kind of pointing, shooting, and hoping. I can't move it buy myself and there isn't anyone here but me.







Motor/Generator


Junction box


This picture was taken through the panel under the on/off switch


Speed control


Any insight into how this one is set up would be helpful. If it can be modified to run on single phase I would rather do that than run a rotary converter. I have a static that I could use to verify that the machine runs and that the bearings aren't screeming but again I am afraid of letting the factory installed smoke out of the machine. If I have to get a rotory I will no problem but I would like to know if it actually works before I spend 400$ on something that I can't use until I get the electrics sorted in the lathe. The 400$ would be better spent on parts for the system. Thanks for any help! -Ben
 
Box on the back of the lathe. It's up against the wall so I'm kind of pointing, shooting, and hoping. I can't move it buy myself and there isn't anyone here but me.







Motor/Generator


Junction box


This picture was taken through the panel under the on/off switch


Speed control


Any insight into how this one is set up would be helpful. If it can be modified to run on single phase I would rather do that than run a rotary converter. I have a static that I could use to verify that the machine runs and that the bearings aren't screeming but again I am afraid of letting the factory installed smoke out of the machine. If I have to get a rotory I will no problem but I would like to know if it actually works before I spend 400$ on something that I can't use until I get the electrics sorted in the lathe. The 400$ would be better spent on parts for the system. Thanks for any help! -Ben

What it appears to be..... 'ner mind.. deleting the first go.

At first glance, there being a glimpse of what appeared to be 'the usual' MG ... but then.. there is a lot of 'stuff' in that box that looks waaay too stout to be only a substitute exciter / field supply.

More photos.. Put the camera on a 'selfie' stick and fire away. Post the good ones, delete the rest.

Also need better idea as to the scale of that external 'box'. Could be a BFBI AKA 'unregulated', as in no feedback, Solid State Armature power conversion. Single-phase already, if so, even if not the best of such. Could work well-enough-as-is.



Bill
 
Well I didn't think I had a reason to own a "selfie stick" but I guess I was wrong. I could see how that would come in handy in certain situations.
I put my back to the wall and moved it away a bit. It's on rollers but it's scary because they don't stay under the machine when they hit a low spot in the floor.
Here's what I got.
Gallon jug of oil and a 5" chuck sitting on "the box"



This is under the heat sink, I see a part number that I didn't notice before. 85014-21R










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Ohhhhh kayyyy.....

Looks as if Reliance electric and Engineering theirselves built this hummer, not some experimenter in a garage. ISTR seeing them in archives.

Too tied up today to do this for you, but Reliance have a veritable treasure-trove of 'white paper' Engineering and legacy documentation on (one of) their websites.

I'd suspect the 'drive' in question was for general-purpose variable-speed DC motor use, and is not the best of fits to a 10EE - because.. the 10EE devotes about 2/3- plus of its RPM band to operating in the Field-Weakened state, and that wants one or BOTH of:

A) A seriously good Field Regulator with tachometer-feedback mandatory.

B) A great deal of TESTING to 'tune' simpler systems to be good enough to make chips reliably and not confuse field-maintenance techs (as much..). WiaD and Modulars live there, as did the MG.

Among other 'tricks' MMT/Reliance, later also Louis-Allis & GE as well, simply used larger motors than the 'usual' 10EE chip-making demanded, so that there was still useful power out at the edges of the range, etc.

FWIW - Monarch Machine Tool used "Plan B" -at least up until trying the "Monarch Sidney", Joliet, etc. more-active 3-P ONLY DC Drives.

A bit more spying, and the leads TO the bugger should confirm if it was (also) a 1-P conversion.

After which.. I'd do all I could do with a meter before powering-up. Then run a low-level 'smoke test' with a 20 A Variac - mainly 'coz I HAVE one.

If it is (over) built as well as Reliance' old-line DC motors themselves were - before they wandered-off to end up abed in the Baldor/Rockwell Automation 'und'now offshore-owned hoorhouse - it may 'just work'.

Wise move to generate yerself a schematic if you cannot find one amongst the Reliance archives. Dirt simple once you get a handle on it.

Bill
 
I do not believe that it is already single phase converted. It has an input power box on the back of the lathe as well. You can see it just behind the "drive box" at the head end of the unit. It has 3 fused connections as well as a blade style on off switch. Seems like they wouldn't have supplied it with 3phase if they didn't have too. Now the machine could be using one side or the other internally but you would know better than me. The transformer in the "drive box" says single phase on it as well. Again I only know enough to to be dangerous. I know that this machine did work before I drug it home 400 miles. The place I got it from used it in their maintenance Dept since new in 45. They built their own wire braiding and spooling machines.
They ran it as it sits but I couldn't get anyone to give me a straight answer on input power. I will dig into it and see what I can find in the archives.


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I do not believe that it is already single phase converted. It has an input power box on the back of the lathe as well. You can see it just behind the "drive box" at the head end of the unit. It has 3 fused connections as well as a blade style on off switch. Seems like they wouldn't have supplied it with 3phase if they didn't have too. Now the machine could be using one side or the other internally but you would know better than me. The transformer in the "drive box" says single phase on it as well. Again I only know enough to to be dangerous. I know that this machine did work before I drug it home 400 miles. The place I got it from used it in their maintenance Dept since new in 45. They built their own wire braiding and spooling machines.
They ran it as it sits but I couldn't get anyone to give me a straight answer on input power. I will dig into it and see what I can find in the archives.


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Sounds like a shop large enough they'd have HAD 'native' 3-P. The input could have carried it to the 10EE for the coolant pump. Or simply because they had the goods to-hand and no 1-P parts handy.

"Maintenance" shops tend to cut dry more often than not, so the coolant pump may not be wired. Or even present...

The 1-P transformers OTOH, are one give-away. Another would be SCR diode-count, since it seems they used stud-mount discretes rather than packaged bridges (which may not have yet been in the market).

Usually Multiples of two for 1-P. Multiples of 3 for 3-P.

Higher count indicates either regeneration (MOST unlikely here), paralleled load sharing (hard to do well back in the day), or simply contactorless '2Q' reversing done the easy way.

And no .. I don't really 'know more' than you about it.

I'm just extrapolating from a different - colour that "older" - experience-base from a time when more 'stuff' had to utilize these early-days-for-solid-state methods.

:)
 
Well sir, I appreciate the insight from that older data/experience base. Thanks, I'll dig in further and let you know. I'm gonna chase wires into the machine from the start and see where that gets me. Also, no coolant pump on this unit.


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Well sir, I appreciate the insight from that older data/experience base. Thanks, I'll dig in further and let you know. I'm gonna chase wires into the machine from the start and see where that gets me. Also, no coolant pump on this unit.


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"Power OFF" and physically disconnected -'locked out' or equivalent, and for-damned-sure, of course.

Even later-on.. do keep in mind that those heat sinks are very probably electrically 'hot'!

Bill
 
Thanks for the warning, I'm a welder by trade so I am all too familiar with all 3 types of hot. Nothing like being the best path to ground first thing in the morning. Getting shocked isn't the bad part it's forcing yourself to hit the peddle again that sucks. Thanks for your help sir!


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I should clarify on the 3 types of hot.
Temperature, electrically, and angry customer.
On a bad day you could get a hot job, burn yourself, and get shocked all in the first hour.



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Thanks for the warning, I'm a welder by trade so I am all too familiar with all 3 types of hot.

Whole new level here.

10EE's use 'stick and FRY' DC at (up to) a nominal 240 VDC, with spikes that can go four times that on rapid braking/reversing.

LETHAL voltages and currents that do NOT take prisoners, IOW.

No worry about going back to strike the next arc.

You'll have become it arredy.

Be careful.. VERY careful.

Bill
 
All my poking around will be before the power is hooked up. Also I don't know if it matters but my machine says its 110vdc. This is the label on the outside of "the box"



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Whole new level here.

10EE's use 'stick and FRY' DC at (up to) a nominal 240 VDC, with spikes that can go four times that on rapid braking/reversing.

LETHAL voltages and currents that do NOT take prisoners, IOW.

No worry about going back to strike the next arc.

You'll have become it arredy.

Be careful.. VERY careful.

Bill



Do you by chance have a link to the Reliance archives?
 
All my poking around will be before the power is hooked up. Also I don't know if it matters but my machine says its 110vdc. This is the label on the outside of "the box"



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The field is what is nominal 110 VDC or so. The Armature wants 230 VDC or thereabouts, wherever derived. Both are variable below those numbers.

Check the nameplate on the 'large frame' 690-2400 RPM 3 HP Reliance Type T (and THEN SOME!) uber-motor in it.

The Field power 'source' ALSO supplies a (hopefully..) steady 110-115 VDC to operate the contactors in the 'DC Panel'. This is tapped-off without going through the Field Weakening Resistance.

The Variac in one of your fotos, plus a rectifier, may have been where the field power source.

Bill
 
If I had to guess all they have done is replace the piggyback exciter with a transformer and rectifier.

..Variac and rectifier. Perched atop the abandoned-in-place MG where the exciter used to live.

..Then bypassed the higher-power MG with an SCR array in an off-machine enclosure.

Stock Reliance item back in the day, that one. But better suited to conveyor lines, coil or wire winding/tensioning DC motors than to a 10EE's peculiar wide-band drive needs.

Those who did the deed may have just robbed their own stockroom. As he said:
They built their own wire braiding and spooling machines.

It should work.. just be short on regulation, especially as to holding RPM predictably under load at much over 1,000 RPM.

Which may not be an issue for the OP any more than it may have bothered - or not - the maintenance guru's who ran it previously.

Bill
 








 
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