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61 Modular not starting

John S01

Aluminum
Joined
Mar 5, 2017
Location
Sunnyvale CA
So I have had my 61 modular running great for almost exactly a year now and today it wouldn't start.

I had been using the taper attachment to make a dauber for Cal, and shut her off since I thought I would move operations back to the mill. Then realized a face of the part wasn't square and put it back in the lathe. Power on, wait 60, green light comes on, push Control On and there was no click. Motor won't start. Spindle lock not in, haven't touched that in months.

From a donie post
Power contactor will close when control on button is depressed but falls open when the control on button is released.
A. control off button is defective.
B. temperature switch is defective.
C. field loss relay is defective.
D. diodes in rec no. 3 defective.
E. c3j tube defective.
F. temperature switch open due to over heating of electronic unit- blower motor or dirty air filter.


My problem may not be the same as described here, because it appears that my power contactor will not close at all.

What is the click sound that my lathe has stopped making? Please be specific as to the location where I would direct my electrical cleaning spray.

So far I have
Replaced the C3J tube. I can't say that this C3J tube is working, bought it and 2 others on ebay last year and never tested them.
Replaced the original Module box. I bought one from everttengineer last year and repaired it. Have been using it since then and put my good working original away.

I guess I could try
the other two C3J tubes I have
F. Seems unlikely since I had been using the lathe for about an hour, and it is 40 degrees in my garage, if so, I suppose it would restart easily in the morning.
A. Control off button I'll check next

Does shorting lines 3-4 act as a substitute for a contactor failure? I read this elsewhere, if so, I would add a wire to 3 and a wire to 4 and route them out of the electrical panel, start the lathe, wait 60 for the light to come on, then connect them.

I also have a backup Field Failure Relay in my spare parts horde, I suppose that would be the field loss relay? I will try putting that one in.

I was just thinking that the lack of the click sound when pushing Control On pointed to something, just don't know what.

Thanks for reading this post, any help appreciated.

John
 
A. Control off button functions normally. The two wires leading to it are continuous until pressed, then they have no continuity.
 
So I have had my 61 modular running great for almost exactly a year now and today it wouldn't start.

I had been using the taper attachment to make a dauber for Cal, and shut her off since I thought I would move operations back to the mill. Then realized a face of the part wasn't square and put it back in the lathe. Power on, wait 60, green light comes on, push Control On and there was no click. Motor won't start. Spindle lock not in, haven't touched that in months.

If you look at this:

10ee_modular_elem.gif


You can see the ITR (timer), ILS (fwd/rev interlock) and overload before the power contactor coil, all inline with the start switch. So one of those has to be open. Since you're getting control voltage from T3 (blower and indicator) you could probe for voltage from the points 50, 3, 4 & 10 (this last only with the start down) to 2 and see where it drops out, pin pointing the failure point.

If you're getting the green light it's not the ITR, so that limits things a little bit.
 
I checked the other C3J, it didn't help, I also checked the control on button and it was working fine, so I checked the points.

50 - 2 120 VAC after the green light comes on

3 - 2 120 VAC after the green light comes on. When I pushed Control on and tested spindle forward control I noticed this dropped to 14.5 VAC

4 - 2 13.2 VAC after green light 110 VAC with the start button down

10 - 2 I'm not certain I hooked this up right. There is no terminal labeled 10 on the strip. From the drawings it looked like it is the right connector at the top of the transformer in the Power Contactor. To the immediate right of it is a label L3 at the top of the black plastic box that looks kind of like a breaker.
If I did hook it up right, that must be the culprit, because when I pushed Control On nothing happened.


rke[pler, would you like some bearings? It's about all I have to bribe you with to keep you interested. I won some huge ones in an auction once and never knew what to do with them. 4 or 5 inch OD. I bid on a lot of 8 in an auction once, it turned out to be a typo and there were 80 instead.

Thanks
 
I checked the other C3J, it didn't help, I also checked the control on button and it was working fine, so I checked the points.

Sorry - control on button? Points?

50 - 2 120 VAC after the green light comes on

3 - 2 120 VAC after the green light comes on. When I pushed Control on and tested spindle forward control I noticed this dropped to 14.5 VAC

OK, not so good but it helps us by telling us that the issue is likely in the button or something after it - the contactor coil or overload.

Check the voltage between 50 & 2 with the start button down, then the same between 33 & 2. For some reason the control voltage is dropping like crazy when you start the PC coil - I'd bet the control light is also going out.

One possibility is that the PC coil is shorted or one of the lines to the coil. With the power off measure the contactor coil resistance, there should be something between 100 and 300 ohms there and I would bet there's a lot less if it's shorted.

If the coil is OK we need to look at the overload, maybe something there? You've checked the reset, try pulling the heater out and see if it's cooked.

If these look OK we'll want to pull the lines to the contactor coil and check the voltage with the coil out of the circuit, make sure that we're seeing the right voltage when the start button is pressed.

10 - 2 I'm not certain I hooked this up right. There is no terminal labeled 10 on the strip. From the drawings it looked like it is the right connector at the top of the transformer in the Power Contactor. To the immediate right of it is a label L3 at the top of the black plastic box that looks kind of like a breaker.
If I did hook it up right, that must be the culprit, because when I pushed Control On nothing happened.

Send me a picture ([email protected]) - sometimes these puppies are messed up (sometimes in ways hard to imagine) and I'll have a better idea what you're asking.

What I'm thinking right now is that either the PC coil is shorted, the overload is messed up or there's a short (maybe to ground, but this isn't a ground referenced system) in the wiring to/from the contactor controls starting at the start button to the other side of the contactor.

rke[pler, would you like some bearings? It's about all I have to bribe you with to keep you interested. I won some huge ones in an auction once and never knew what to do with them. 4 or 5 inch OD. I bid on a lot of 8 in an auction once, it turned out to be a typo and there were 80 instead.

Happy to help and no payment needed. No idea what I'd do with some big ass bearings but we could chat about it.
 
I have become confused over the coils that are present in the Power Contactor (PC) and the 2MF and 2MR which I believe are called Spindle Forward and Reverse Contactors. The coils on all three of these appear to be identical. These are what I referred to above as a transformer because that is what they looked like to me, but I have learned that they are coils of wire that become magnetized and draw the spring loaded contacts shut when energized.

rke[pler has been more than patient with me today answering my questions about the situation. He told me to measure the resistance across the coil of the Power contactor. I measured 13.7 Ohms and he told me that it should have been 10 times that and the coil was probably shorted. He wanted me to unhook one of the connectors to the coil and measure again in case there was a short, but I couldn't because the connectors were too fragile and would have broken off before they could be unscrewed.

Then I realized I had 2 spare parts Spindle Forward & Reverse contactors (they are identical & have the same part numbers) with coils that appear the same as the PC coil. They measured 13 to 14 Ohms as well across the coil. Later in the day I measured the same coils that are in my 10ee (2MF and 2MR) and they were also about 14 Ohms.

I'm happy to report that I later pushed the Power Contactor in using an insulated tool (green light on) and all of the old familiar sounds happened and the spindle could be run again. When I released pressure on it, it pulled back just like I hit the control off button.

So I am confused that it appears that the PC coil has failed from the behavior of the Power Contactor, but the resistance across that coil is the same as all of the other good working coils on my lathe.

Don't think I am being critical of rke[pler, not at all, I am just trying to make sense of all of this. I have learned a lot today, and I hope it will help me to keep this 10ee running for a lot longer.

I guess the next step is to replace the coil on the PC and trouble shoot from there, but why bother if it shows the same resistance as the good working ones?
 
He wanted me to unhook one of the connectors to the coil and measure again in case there was a short, but I couldn't because the connectors were too fragile and would have broken off before they could be unscrewed.
Sorta tells you what else you need to next check for faults, does it not?

One may have, already. Surely seems so.

New terminals still exist. Messing with them only "bites" if you forgot to unhook the power!

:)

Coils can easily all read the same... if they are still part of an external circuit the meter is ACTUALLY reading.

That's why we have to detach and isolate them. To measure that one coil. Not the world it was attached to.
 
Thanks thermite, but I have the extra Spindle Forward & Reverse contactors with identical coils sitting in a parts box. They all read the same 12 - 13 ohms and they are not part of any circuit except the one I create with my multimeter.
 
Coils can easily all read the same... if they are still part of an external circuit the meter is ACTUALLY reading.

That's why we have to detach and isolate them. To measure that one coil. Not the world it was attached to.

The problem I'm having is that the coils being measured in the spare fwd/rev contactor set seem to have the same ~12 ohm reading, and they're clearly out of circuit (at least to my understanding of the contactor wiring). 12 ohms on the 120V control would give you a coil current of 10A, a lot more than the control circuit wants to supply through the 5A fuse.

So I'm a little confused.
 
The problem I'm having is that the coils being measured in the spare fwd/rev contactor set seem to have the same ~12 ohm reading, and they're clearly out of circuit (at least to my understanding of the contactor wiring). 12 ohms on the 120V control would give you a coil current of 10A, a lot more than the control circuit wants to supply through the 5A fuse.

So I'm a little confused.

A meter on the wrong range maybe?
 
I have become confused over the coils that are present in the Power Contactor (PC) and the 2MF and 2MR which I believe are called Spindle Forward and Reverse Contactors. The coils on all three of these appear to be identical. These are what I referred to above as a transformer because that is what they looked like to me, but I have learned that they are coils of wire that become magnetized and draw the spring loaded contacts shut when energized.

rke[pler has been more than patient with me today answering my questions about the situation. He told me to measure the resistance across the coil of the Power contactor. I measured 13.7 Ohms and he told me that it should have been 10 times that and the coil was probably shorted. He wanted me to unhook one of the connectors to the coil and measure again in case there was a short, but I couldn't because the connectors were too fragile and would have broken off before they could be unscrewed.

Then I realized I had 2 spare parts Spindle Forward & Reverse contactors (they are identical & have the same part numbers) with coils that appear the same as the PC coil. They measured 13 to 14 Ohms as well across the coil. Later in the day I measured the same coils that are in my 10ee (2MF and 2MR) and they were also about 14 Ohms.

I'm happy to report that I later pushed the Power Contactor in using an insulated tool (green light on) and all of the old familiar sounds happened and the spindle could be run again. When I released pressure on it, it pulled back just like I hit the control off button.

So I am confused that it appears that the PC coil has failed from the behavior of the Power Contactor, but the resistance across that coil is the same as all of the other good working coils on my lathe.

Don't think I am being critical of rke[pler, not at all, I am just trying to make sense of all of this. I have learned a lot today, and I hope it will help me to keep this 10ee running for a lot longer.

I guess the next step is to replace the coil on the PC and trouble shoot from there, but why bother if it shows the same resistance as the good working ones?
AC coils will have the reading you have found DC coils will have 10 times more or less than what you have measured. The works in a drawer for the motor relays are DC.
Attempt to energize the PC with a voltmeter connected to the coil and see what you are getting if less than the AC supply look for an open wire (break under the insulation of a connector) very seldom in the middle of the wire run.
 
The problem I'm having is that the coils being measured in the spare fwd/rev contactor set seem to have the same ~12 ohm reading, and they're clearly out of circuit (at least to my understanding of the contactor wiring). 12 ohms on the 120V control would give you a coil current of 10A, a lot more than the control circuit wants to supply through the 5A fuse.

So I'm a little confused.
AC coils have AC reactance which cannot be measured with a meter if you put DC on that same coil you would draw 10A but AC behave differently on coils.
 
Thanks all, I am just trying to verify that it is the coil that is faulty, and yes, I know crunchy 60 year old electronics should be replaced but if I go down that route, I would have to toss the entire mess except for the fuse I bought last year.

Can anyone suggest a test that would show whether the coil is the problem or not?

How about
1. Machine off - put 110v across the PC coil and see if it closes.
2. Test the control off side at FL, 5, or 6 or somewhere else to see if the problem is there.

I know I have 110 volts up to 4

What is the symbol between 4 and PC it looks like 1 0l over a capital N
Is that the overload? Where is it located?
 
I know crunchy 60 year old electronics should be replaced but if I go down that route, I would have to toss the entire mess except for the fuse I bought last year.
No, not really, nor even close-to.

Monarch bought and used exceptionally durable machine-tool wire.

I noticed that when I sawzalled all the conduit on my 1942 one, and pulled it out, oil slicked but insulation still flexible and undamaged as I tossed it. Eurotherm-Parker-SSD DC drive wasn't going to use a single nanometer of it, nor even one switch nor rheostat, anywhere.

Termination failures DO happen, but are so uncommon, lo these many years on PM, they have not (yet) made it to the standard, "first check.." advice.

Maybe we are now entering the age where they become so, but still..

A decent brand of terminals not hobby/automotive crap, a "ratchet" type crimper invested it, decent stripper used with ordinary care, and you need not fear the re-terminating task at all.

IGNORING any effects of age and hard life will NOT "make them go away".

Just leaves them a time-bomb ticking for the next ALWAYS inconveniently timed pain in the ass niggly little piss-ant of a failure. Those take a week, typically to sort. Sometimes a MONTH.

Re-terminating the entire Mike-Foxtrot, end to end, not even a full man-day. The wire itself will generally be just fine, no re-pulling required, just glass-brushing off the oxide.

And it won't need but a few of the terminations re-done, either.
 
Thanks all, I am just trying to verify that it is the coil that is faulty, and yes, I know crunchy 60 year old electronics should be replaced but if I go down that route, I would have to toss the entire mess except for the fuse I bought last year.

Can anyone suggest a test that would show whether the coil is the problem or not?

How about
1. Machine off - put 110v across the PC coil and see if it closes.
2. Test the control off side at FL, 5, or 6 or somewhere else to see if the problem is there.

I know I have 110 volts up to 4

What is the symbol between 4 and PC it looks like 1 0l over a capital N
Is that the overload? Where is it located?
To test the coil you can apply 120VAC with the machine disconnected from the power and see if the relay works.
All I have is a manual for the Modular so cannot tell you where IOL is located it is an overload with the heaters on the primary of the Big transformer It looks like it may be a manual reset type of device very suspect as to be your problem as the PC should have held in when you manually energized it pointing the problem to that contact, coil or wire.
 
To test the coil you can apply 120VAC with the machine disconnected from the power and see if the relay works.
All I have is a manual for the Modular so cannot tell you where IOL is located it is an overload with the heaters on the primary of the Big transformer It looks like it may be a manual reset type of device very suspect as to be your problem as the PC should have held in when you manually energized it pointing the problem to that contact, coil or wire.

According to the drawings I have IOL is on the power contactor - I suspect that it's "Integrated Over Load" or some similar clever acronym.

I've wanted the coil out of the circuit not just to measure the resistance, but to check the applied voltage, this because an earlier test suggested a very low voltage at the coil while the voltages before the start button were to spec. That would suggest a problem between the start button and the coil, assuming (as it appears) that there's nothing wrong with the coil.

Here's the contactor:

IMG_0077.jpg

I would expect that the overload is just reset by the big red reset button, and should appear as a short if it's working.
 
This afternoon I hooked up 120 VAC to the Power Contactor coil and it clacked shut in an instant. So it's not the coil.

I have 120 VAC at 4, and a working coil, so it has to be the IOL thing.

Here is a picture of the PC with the coil connectors highlighted in yellow. You might notice they are askew from the stress they have received. The left one goes to 2 and the right one is labeled 10. That red wire at 10 connects to a terminal on the below red reset button. I pushed the reset button several times as well as the one to the right, but that didn't help.

Here is a closer photo.
Shared album - John Shepardson - Google Photos
The green wire is a test line to 2.

I tested bypassing the IOL thing and connected 4 to 10 and that worked perfect. No dropping out and lathe is running normally.

It's a relief at the moment to know my lathe has hope, but I'm not planning to operate it until I know more about the function of the IOL.

It is a complicated looking thing, Notice the metal ribbon connector on each side above the reset button.

Funny thing I noticed is that metal panel over the PC with the label, Cutler Hammer etc. is non conducting. What the heck metal doesn't conduct electricity? maybe it has a coating on it.

Many thanks to Rke[pler and thermite and labeeman. How are you guys set for bearings and 10ee daubers?
 
This afternoon I hooked up 120 VAC to the Power Contactor coil and it clacked shut in an instant. So it's not the coil.

I have 120 VAC at 4, and a working coil, so it has to be the IOL thing.

Here is a picture of the PC with the coil connectors highlighted in yellow. You might notice they are askew from the stress they have received. The left one goes to 2 and the right one is labeled 10. That red wire at 10 connects to a terminal on the below red reset button. I pushed the reset button several times as well as the one to the right, but that didn't help.

Here is a closer photo.
Shared album - John Shepardson - Google Photos
The green wire is a test line to 2.

I tested bypassing the IOL thing and connected 4 to 10 and that worked perfect. No dropping out and lathe is running normally.

It's a relief at the moment to know my lathe has hope, but I'm not planning to operate it until I know more about the function of the IOL.

It is a complicated looking thing, Notice the metal ribbon connector on each side above the reset button.

Funny thing I noticed is that metal panel over the PC with the label, Cutler Hammer etc. is non conducting. What the heck metal doesn't conduct electricity? maybe it has a coating on it.

Many thanks to Rke[pler and thermite and labeeman. How are you guys set for bearings and 10ee daubers?
IOL is a breaker type device if you draw too many amps for too long a time it opens up to d energize PC protecting the wiring and transformer from burning up. The contacts could just be dirty and need cleaning or it could be bad after all it is only 57 years old.
 
How are you guys set for bearings and 10ee daubers?

Had a set back with the crushed leg not healing right. I'm "set" to have found two of the three lengths of metal I promised. Some may just replace or side-expand choices against stocks you've already put into work, but have it you shall.

My mobility improves as much the next few days as it has this past week, I'll soon kick a set of rheostats and an MG unit out the door, too.

Not so much advancing age as running yer arse over with a tracked mini-front end loader meant to be walk-behind, as-in UPRIGHT, not fall-down-behind, as-in SUPINE!

:)

Bill
 








 
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