Anybody have 1955 Monarch 10EE Schematic? Need Reliance 6299H15C

I just got a 1955 10EE sn 40551. Advertised as 208v 3 ph working condition. First thing I saw when I when I took off the cover was a beautiful brass nameplate marked 440V. I had kinda planned on the drive not working since this thing was stored for a long time so no worries. I started removing wires from the terminal studs being careful they were well marked. All had factory markings and seemed to match the tags on the terminal studs. Anyway long story short it IS a 208v machine so the 440v tag is wrong. After some cleanup back the wires go. Except I have 2 extra wires with no home! Outsmarted myself again! I aquired drawing EE-3216 and have seen EE-3218 but these both have reliance control 6299H15A noted on the drawing and the wires are marked a little differently, as are the terminal studs. My exta wires are marked "GR" and "F1" and I have a terminal stud marked "GR1" that doesn't have a corresponding wire. I've searched the forum but can't find what I need. Anybody know where i can get my hands on the drawing showing 6299H15C? Thanks!

guythatbrews said:

I just got a 1955 10EE sn 40551. Advertised as 208v 3 ph working condition. First thing I saw when I when I took off the cover was a beautiful brass nameplate marked 440V. I had kinda planned on the drive not working since this thing was stored for a long time so no worries. I started removing wires from the terminal studs being careful they were well marked. All had factory markings and seemed to match the tags on the terminal studs. Anyway long story short it IS a 208v machine so the 440v tag is wrong. After some cleanup back the wires go. Except I have 2 extra wires with no home! Outsmarted myself again! I aquired drawing EE-3216 and have seen EE-3218 but these both have reliance control 6299H15A noted on the drawing and the wires are marked a little differently, as are the terminal studs. My exta wires are marked "GR" and "F1" and I have a terminal stud marked "GR1" that doesn't have a corresponding wire. I've searched the forum but can't find what I need. Anybody know where i can get my hands on the drawing showing 6299H15C? Thanks!

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1955 is above my pay-grade, but:

Trace "GR1", physically, confirm with a meter.

On my early 1940's MG-era schematic, carrying dates from 7-1942 thru mods made late in 1944, that is "Generator Rheostat" wire 1, has an Ohmite Rheostat at one end, is switched to "E1" at either of the FWD or REV contactors at the other end(s).

"F1" should trace-out as a Field power wire, final-drive motor field, hard-ties to E2, and eventually the other end of the fixed portion, same rheostat. "Slider" pickup goes to GF2.

2CW .... until Cal or someone else with better info comes online.

Monarchist said:

1955 is above my pay-grade, but:

Trace "GR1", physically, confirm with a meter.

On my early 1940's MG-era schematic, carrying dates from 7-1942 thru mods made late in 1944, that is "Generator Rheostat" wire 1, has an Ohmite Rheostat at one end, is switched to "E1" at either of the FWD or REV contactors at the other end(s).

"F1" should trace-out as a Field power wire, final-drive motor field, hard-ties to E2, and eventually the other end of the fixed portion, same rheostat. "Slider" pickup goes to GF2.

2CW .... until Cal or someone else with better info comes online.

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Thanks Monarchist! I always say any pay-grade in a storm. I will cipher on this a bit...

That's correct. Wire F1 goes to terminal E2. Wire GR goes to terminal GR1.

All of the square-dial DC control panels operate from 115 VDC, provided by the exciter. The 440 V on the tag is how the MG set was configured at the factory. With a few exceptions, the MGs could be configured for either 220 or 440 VAC.

Cal

i took my southbend to motor shop it was 440 only they changed it around to 230 three phase cost me 250. mine was a two speed motor went to buy another motor 2300

Sucess!

Cal Haines said:

That's correct. Wire F1 goes to terminal E2. Wire GR goes to terminal GR1.

All of the square-dial DC control panels operate from 115 VDC, provided by the exciter. The 440 V on the tag is how the MG set was configured at the factory. With a few exceptions, the MGs could be configured for either 220 or 440 VAC.

Cal

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I got the fire extinguisher ready for nothing! Started right up! Thank you very much gentlemen! Not without a few hitches tho. The DC motor brushes arc at maybe above the halfway speed and cause the speed to surge up and down. The commutator looks very nice. Seems to run just fine at lower speed. Brushes have lots of life. No arcing at MG or exciter. Commutator looks a bit funny after arcing but wipes off to good condition. The tach doesn't work but I've yet to look into that.

Any suggestions for the arcing?

guythatbrews said:

Any suggestions for the arcing?

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A couple of thoughts: check to see if the brush ring has moved from the neutral position. If not you might want to check that you have enough voltage from the exciter - see what the field voltage is when the arcing starts.

guythatbrews said:

I got the fire extinguisher ready for nothing! Started right up! Thank you very much gentlemen! Not without a few hitches tho. The DC motor brushes arc at maybe above the halfway speed and cause the speed to surge up and down. The commutator looks very nice. Seems to run just fine at lower speed. Brushes have lots of life. No arcing at MG or exciter. Commutator looks a bit funny after arcing but wipes off to good condition. The tach doesn't work but I've yet to look into that.

Any suggestions for the arcing?

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Brush timing, as said.

Check ALSO that the brushes and sleeves are clean, that each "tamper" & spring are in good working order so the brush has the correct pressure to work and wear normally AND NOT hang-up nor bounce.

See that the brush's pigtail braid and its terminations are good. It insures a conductive path if/as/when that from brush to holder sleeve might be erratic or imperfect. EITHER can carry current, but life is quieter when BOTH conduct.

FWIW-not-much dept. Discovered by careless accident (I had pulled one brush to measure it, order new ones..) that at least the "large frame" 3 HP Reliance Motor WILL run on 3 brushes. Probably even just two - out of its usual four. That can "hide" a bad or bent holder unless you dig deeply.

And they can get bent [1], at which point ...ta da.. adjusting timing alone isn't good enough, they "span" more segments than they should do and produce burn marks on the commutator.

[1] Part of the original problem here with the OEM Module drive, not found until conversion to SSD drive was already underway:
http://www.practicalmachinist.com/v...sd-dc-retrofit-into-1961-10ee-modular-332092/

guythatbrews said:

... The DC motor brushes arc at maybe above the halfway speed and cause the speed to surge up and down. The commutator looks very nice. Seems to run just fine at lower speed. Brushes have lots of life. No arcing at MG or exciter. Commutator looks a bit funny after arcing but wipes off to good condition. The tach doesn't work but I've yet to look into that.

Any suggestions for the arcing?

Click to expand...

As Russ suggested, check to make sure that the brush ring is tight. Here's a photo that shows the brush ring, it's just behind the spider at the front of the motor:


The crosswise nut and bolt clamp the ring in place. Before you touch it, make a mark on the spider, opposite the neutral mark. Here's a closeup that shows the neutral mark on the brush ring (circled in red):

If you're lucky, the last guy to adjust the brush timing left a mark on the spider where the ring should be set.

To get rid of the sparking, try adjusting the brush timing until you get just a tiny pin-point spark at each brush at all speeds. Don't do it with the motor running, just mark the location of the brush ring, rotate it 1/8" on the circumference and try again. If things got worse, go the other way. Keep going until it's running with minimal sparking and good speed forward, then see how it runs in reverse. Continue adjusting the brushes until you're getting about the same speed forward and reverse, then mark the final position, tighten the clamp and leave it alone.

Cal

Cal Haines said:

until you're getting about the same speed forward and reverse,

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Best power and brush longevity is usually about a 5% to 10% bias to FWD in unloaded RPM, and in any case the absolute least spark when in FWD.

I set this "live" with a mechanical tacho and two meters at nominal 100% Armature of 230 VDC and nominal 100% Field of 115 VDC. My actual running is at 250/260 - even as much as 300 VDC - at the Armature and 140 VDC max Field. (Eurotherm/Parker-SSD DC Drive).

Regardless of DC source(s), setting REV at a modest disadvantage - VERY modest, as happens - is "usually" more than paid-back, as mostly we do run our 10EE in FWD more than 95% of the time, more especially when under working loads.

Surging better after moving brush ring!

All great and very timely info guys! Thanks so very much! Everything looks to be in good mechanical order. I moved the brush ring a bit (after making a witness mark) and this seemed to help very much cure the surging. Will bring my tach in tomorrow and check fwd vs rev rpm as suggested. And the machine tach does work i was just too dumb to know it only works in forward.

Another thing, if anybody can tell me why most machinists feel the need to leave their mark on every machine they touch go ahead. All the knobs and even bezel around the tach all beat to hell. How somebody could beat up the bezel is beyond me. What a shame to take such a nice thing and mark it all up! Forget about "bull in a china closet". Try "machinist"! There i got my rant out about that.

Brush ring timed!

I finally got around to timing the brushes on the DC drive motor. This is what I did.

(borrowed from a post on 7/1/2011 by DaveE907)
"There are number of methods to accomplish timing, a simple one is to disconnect the drive motor A1, A2, F1 and F2 connections from the machine. Connect a DVM across A1 and A2 and supply low voltage AC to F1 and F2. (The low voltage can be from something as simple as a door bell transformer.) Rotate the brush holder to achieve the lowest reading on the DVM and clamp the brush holder. The motor is timed."

So I disconnected the motor leads at the junction box on the side of the motor and made my connections directly to the motor leads. I did use a door bell transformer. Without much trouble the lowest voltage reading I got was 0.0. With a phototach i got these results:

forward 756rpm reverse 756rpm
f 1317 r 1294
f 2635 r 2419

Very slight brush sparking to no sparking. Everything seems to be running very well and there is a slight bias to the forward rpm being higher which some say is desirable.

I'm happy withe these results until somebody tells me it should be better. I'm new to the forum and very much appreciate all the help and info. Looking forward to running the lathe and seeing what she will do!