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Anybody have a Sundstrand hydro drive for a 10EE laying around?

nickscholtes

Plastic
Joined
Apr 3, 2008
Location
Chicago
Hi All! My family has had 10EE lathes for decades and decades. One of the lathes that is particularly important to the family and is of significant sentimental value, is a 1939 round dial with the original Sundstrand hydro. This machine has performed wonderfully until recently, when the hydro blew a seal. One thing led to another.... long story.... Anyway, does anyone have a Sundstrand hydro unit laying around that they'd be willing to part with? Even if it doesn't operate, we're quite experience with the unit and are just looking for a couple of important internal parts, specifically the internal pump casting.

Just to head off any errant discussions, no I don't want to upgrade this lathe to a modern drive, yes I know the shortcomings of the hydro....... This is all about restoring an old machine to as close to original condition as possible.

Thanks!!

Nick Scholtes
 
It's a really complex casting. I guess in theory you could machine one, but it would be quite an effort, and way past my abilities.
 
I'm glad that you want to keep the Sundstrand working. There are very few of them left in the wild.

I would love to see some photos of the machine.

Can the damaged casting be repaired?

Cal
 
Sorry for the delay in responding. I still have not been able to find any parts for the Sundstrand hydro drive.

For those interested, the serial number of the machine is 7151. It's a 1939. I spoke to Monarch about rebuilding this hydro-drive, and they said that the machine did come from the factory back in '39 with the Sundstrand hydro. We've had the machine in the family since the early '50's.

Thanks for any help on this project!
 
Just be patient, one will turn up. The last one I saw was about 10 years ago and it was free for the taking; its long gone now. There was a Sundstrand drive machine that did not sell on Ebay a few months ago, I believe the owner lived in Downey, CA. and he was only asking $1500 for the machine. I think there was a thread about it, so someone may have his contact info.

Can you post some more information about the failure? When it blew the seal, what were the symptoms, and what caused the ultimate failure? I have a Sundstrand machine that I use regularly, so I would like to know for my own info, and hopefully to avoid doing something similar.

-Dave
 
Sure, here are some of the details....

The machine was working just fine. One time while using it, I suddenly realized that I was standing in oil. The machine was leaking PROFUSELY! I removed the entire drive system which includes the electric motor, the Sunstrand drive, the oil tank. I ran the drive system on the bench, and the problem was obvious, there is a paper gasket that is between the drive housing and the (for lack of a better term..) end cover. I asked a couple of the guys in the shop to see about fixing that gasket leak, and that's where the screwup happened....

It is not obvious at all as to how to remove the cover plate, and of course a manual for this unit doesn't exist. The key is to remove the control housing on the side of the drive FIRST. Well, that wasn't done, instead they tried to remove the cover plate directly, and when it wouldn't come off they used a puller. That puller applied so much force that it damaged the casting that holds the pump pistons. Eventually we removed the control housing and then the cover plate comes right out. By then the damage had been done.

I really like this machine, and as I said in the original post it has tremendous sentimental value. I really hope we can find a replacement casting somehow.

Hope this description helps. If there's any more detail that you'd like, I'd be glad to provide it.
 
This might be a way long shot.
Call Coast to Coast Hydraulics in W Chicago. (630) 587-9300
They have repaired some quite hard to find pumps and motors for me in the past. They may be able to repair your drive.
 
Is sundstrand still in business? their rights bought out by someone after bankruptsy? Thats where I would start for a manual.

Still in business. Succeeded rather than failed, but... has been through so many changes along the way there is effectively less knowledge of those late 1930's drives amongst the staff and records of the surviving entity than there is right here on PM.

Drives similar in concept yet exist in construction and ag equipment, but they are not Sundstrand products. Probably not very well suited to powering a precision lathe, either.

I'd take a hard look at what it would take to repair the damaged casting to an operable - if ugly - condition. Sleeves, straps, jackets, braces, no more welding than can be avoided, etc.

Labour-intensive, surely. But not SO much so that it might not still be the fastest route to getting it all running again. The stresses on any part of it have got to be relatively low in comparison to more exotic hydraulics that came later.

Finding a undamaged original? May as well buy lottery tickets and sacrifice chikins.

:)

Bill
 
Hello all.

I was reading through the Sundstrand drive posts today. My 10EE seems to be in decent shape and was told that the drive had been overhauled just prior to the machine being moved and stored. The lathe has sat idle for many years so I really won't know where I am until I am able to get into the machine and connect her to power. Hope does spring eternal.

I read several discussions as to possible options available should the Sundstrand drive be unrepairable. I am a rookie at this but did do a Google search for axial piston pumps and saw that many companies, Bosch for example, currently manufacture them. I also saw many different models for sale on eBay.

Has anyone ever replaced their 10EE Sundstrand drive with one of more modern manufacture?

Thanks.

Bob
 
Bob, wondering whether anyone has re-powered a Sundstrand maching with a modern pump is a great question and one I have been pondering ever since my Sundstrand machine failed. I have a friend who works for a company that makes hydrostatic drive pumps (actually, his company is a branch of the company that ultimately bought Sundstrand). I have to admit that I have not put in sufficient effort to figure out what modern pump might replace the old Sundstrand, but re-powering with something modern sounds like a great plan to me.

If you're open to the idea, maybe you and I could work together to maybe figure out a couple of things. One possibility is we could make one operational Sundstrand drive out of the two that we have, and maybe we could also figure out how to re-power the lathe with a modern drive.

I'm willing to entertain any and all options.

Best,

Nick
 
I have a question to all.....

On the topic of re-powering a Sundstrand drive machine with a modern drive pump, in order to choose an appropriate replacement, we'd need to know the output speed range of the original Sundstrand. Since my Sundstrand is now in-operational so I can't test it, does anyone know what it's output shaft speed is? I suppose I could calculate it, but maybe someone has the number off the top of their head.
 
I have a question to all.....

On the topic of re-powering a Sundstrand drive machine with a modern drive pump, in order to choose an appropriate replacement, we'd need to know the output speed range of the original Sundstrand. Since my Sundstrand is now in-operational so I can't test it, does anyone know what it's output shaft speed is? I suppose I could calculate it, but maybe someone has the number off the top of their head.

I am hoping and suspect one of the usual suspects will come along with answer to the pump shaft speed question. I have to flush, fill, and power up mine yet but hope mine will work. My Sundstrand drive had just been rebuilt and put back to use when the company moved and put my lathe in storage. No special provision was made to set it up for storage, at least it was parked indoors.

If mine is operational, I am kind of excited at the simplicity (lack of electronics) of the design. I would certainly be interested in trying to put our heads together on the project but must admit, almost anyone on the forum would be more qualified to do so than I. I would appreciate very much seeing any photos you have taken of the drive, assembled and unassembled, as well as photos of the pump housing that was damaged.

Regards.

Bob
 
I have a question to all.....

On the topic of re-powering a Sundstrand drive machine with a modern drive pump, in order to choose an appropriate replacement, we'd need to know the output speed range of the original Sundstrand. Since my Sundstrand is now in-operational so I can't test it, does anyone know what it's output shaft speed is? I suppose I could calculate it, but maybe someone has the number off the top of their head.

Even though your motor is not operational, you have the means to answer your own question:

the speed range of the lathe is 0-3000 RPM

Multiply that by the pulley ratio and you will get the speed range of the hydraulic motor.

The pump itself is fixed speed, and you can again calculate that from the motor rpm times the pulley ratio.
 
Hi Nick,
Long time voyeur of the forum and first time post.
I happen to have a 10EE serial number 7166. Built in 39 and delivered to Brown and Sharp 1-1940.
The drive is functioning but speed range is limited. 500rpm at the low end (threading is bit scarey to say the least!)and about 1500 at the top. No reverse either, although that may be mechanical, I just haven't pulled it to investigate further.
As much as I like and appreciate maintaining the original glory of it all, I'm thinking I want to move to a VFD, with an installation that honors the original on off, reverse and speed controls (I love that nine inch speed control wheel). It's a beautiful machine and I don't want to light it up like a Christmas tree if I can help it.
If you're still looking for a hydro drive, contact me off line and we can talk. Of course not sure how you do that since I'm new here, but I think there is a way members can reach each other.

Dave
 
Dave,

You can right click on Nick's user name to send him a personal message or e-mail (if he has enabled e-mails). But I don't know if you're going to have any luck getting in touch with him, since he's only posted a few times and only to this thread.

Sundstrand-drive machines don't have a backgear unit, so your low-speed performance with a VFD is going to be pretty poor. Even if you did have one on hand, there isn't space to install it unless you carve a huge hole in the bulkhead behind the motor to make room. I would hate to see the old girl butchered up like that.

I hope you'll reconsider the conversion. An old-school automatic transmission mechanic or hydraulic pump mechanic might be able to fix the existing drive for you.

Cal
 
Well Cal, you stopped me in my tracks, enough to do a little further investigation.
As far as hacking her up, once the Hydro drive is out along with the oil reservoir you pick up about 5+ inches in head room (which of course will lower the drive pulley location and require longer v belts) but it gets the longitudinal axis of the motor below the main cross piece of the casting and from there it is wide open toward the tailstock to accept the added length, if the motor is aligned similar to the hydro drive location. There is also a "hump" in the casting right behind the hydro that would give even more head room if the new motor were installed a few inches toward the front of the lathe.
I'm still researching inverter duty motors with Baldor in the lead. But both a 5 and a 7.5 HP TEFC,from the drawings, appear to fit. The 5 HP being a bit shorter in height and length of coarse. I don't think any hacking would have to take place and I agree, I don't want to do that!
I've called a few hydraulic guys in the area and they aren't very re assuring about a repair without seeing it, so I guess I'll just take the plunge, haul it out and drive it around town. That will help answer both questions, can anybody fix it and with a clear picture of her body cavity, can I get a proper AC motor to fit.
I've read a bunch of the threads on VFD conversions and it seems current technology with sensorless vector control should give decent low RPM torque. Even the VFD salesman said it would (of course... why wouldn't he!)
So I really appreciate your input and I'll keeping unraveling this thing until the solution appears. I really want to run her and keep her looking and performing like she did 75 years ago.
BTW I know there is no backgear on the Sundstrand drive but there is a mechanical linkage and control on mine that will engage the hydro in forward rotation and has the throw to indicate reverse, but it won't engage. Even without a backgear shouldn't you be able to reverse a gear and vane hydraulic motor? I know just enough to be dangerous on this subject but thought it should run in reverse if the input drive were also run in reverse. I'll post again when I learn something.......hmmm,as old as I am that could be a long time! but I hope not.
 








 
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