Thread: Considering this upgrade for my 10EE

Originally Posted by beckley23

It looks like it would be easier and more cost effective to do a VFD conversion using a 5 HP inverter duty rated motor. A Sensorless Vector Control, or better yet a Flux Vector Control(perhaps with tachometer feedback), will be more than adequate for the lathe. I wouldn't worry to much about the torque at the low end unless you plan on turning large diameters.
My experience with the VFD conversion I did was excellent. I found the torque adequate down to about 150 RPM, mostly for threading purposes, in direct drive. My normal running speeds were, and are, considerably higher. You will most likely need to add external braking resistors, IIRC, the 4 resistors that I used cost about 50.00 total, and could stop the spindle in less than 1-1/2 seconds, which is programmable, from 1500 RPM with a 6" D chuck. The DC braking that Monarch has in the drive can't match it, I know because I ran tests on my 2 EE's while I still had the VFD machine.
Harry

As the controller in-hand can't stand a boost transformer at the input, that may well be the least hassle, yes.

I see the options as:

A) Do nothing.
Pretend it is a lesser lathe with broken back gears that never had high RPM, broad range, and dead-smooth running in the first place.
Cheapest. One has to adjust expectations. But can still make chips. And more accurately than on a similarly broken El Cheapo.

B) Upgrade to a 'better' DC Controller plus boost transformer - same Baldor 3 HP DC motor.
Still less powerful and rougher at all speeds. low-end especially, than original Monarch (pole-count matters!)
But at least delivers more power and higher RPM than at present.

Still no back gears, however.

C) Harry's suggestion - source BOTH a VFD and replacement 'SCR duty' AC motor of (at least) 5 HP that will be at its best when the VFD has only 240 VAC single-phase input. Not all motor and VFD qualify for that last part, so be careful in selection.
A plus is that doesn't need to use of ANY of the other original electricals. VFD does it all in one box.
Monarch found it wanting, had to move up to 7HP or more, but 5 HP should do well enough for lighter hobby/prototype work.

Biggest issue remains: No back gears.


D) Find an original Monarch motor WITH its reduction gearbox. Source an appropriate DC Drive WITH field control AND a boost transformer.
Gets full original performance, and in all respects. As with a VFD, it doesn't necessarily need use of ANY of the other orginal electricals.

Lucky deals on used or NOS aside, a downside is that an 'appropriate DC Drive' and boost transformer can be expected to be $500 to $1,000 more costly than a 5 HP to 10 HP capable VFD. 'More costly', total cost being higher.

Whether a Monarch motor and gearbox is more costlly or less costly than a 5HP or larger AC motor of the right sort cannot be as easily predicted.

E) Servo Drive.
Both for inspiration and how much must be done to actually IMPROVE on the original Monarch DC rig (or try to do) - have a read, not only at Jerry's own conversion, but the contributions to his thread of others who have also gone the 'servo' route:

Retrofit of 10EE Drive to AC Brushless Servo Motor

Bring the Luck o' the Irish on scouting surplus, and/or 'cubic money' ....plus lots of skill, free time ... and patience ... if you wish to duplicate that approach.

Bill

So, your saying that the absolute best thing I can do for this machine is get an orig motor from Monarch and install that. But what do I do at that point for a DC Drive? New setup from Beel?

Originally Posted by KnoLimitz

So, your saying that the absolute best thing I can do for this machine is get an orig motor from Monarch and install that. But what do I do at that point for a DC Drive? New setup from Beel?

It is the best 'easy' route. Servo's require some Engineering as well as the parts.

Jonathan is touting his Beel drive as a viable option, and one that claims to have already sorted what is needed to specifically mate up to a 10EE's remaining electricals. Which you may not have all of anyway, as ISTR your machine had originally been a hydraulic-drive model.

I'm going a different route, and using a Parker/SSD drive and NONE of the original Monarch controls, but will have to implement a separate variable field supply and integrate control of that with armature voltage control. That, or similar, has also been done by others, more than once, and long before I entered the room.

As both the Beel and SSD need boost transformers, and the SSD ALSO needs a variable (and monitored) field system, when pricing both from 'new', there is not much cost difference between them.

OTOH, Jonathan is still struggling to get 'critical mass' - enough 10EE users to get positive reports circulating - whilst the Parker/Eurotherm/SSD has been in general use worldwide for a very long time, hence is a known quantity.

As a byproduct of such widespread use, it is also available used and NIB/NOS or 'remaindered', (mine is such), which can be much less costly than a new Beel.

Choice depends on your own skills, but with the voltages involved, I cannot recommend building any part of your own if you haven't done it before, more than once, and to applicable codes and a highly professional standard. Even then, you won't have UL/CSA/Tuv certification, so Beel might be far the lesser-risk option, even without member testimonials.

Bill

"OTOH, Jonathan is still struggling to get 'critical mass' - enough 10EE users to get positive reports circulating"

Third-party complete replacement 10EE drives are not new.

For perhaps two or three decades, and possibly longer, there have been such options.

Imperial and Joliet, two name but two.

Both replaced all the electronics; one added tachometer feedback.

I believe Beel's initial mis-step was assuming the DC Panel was still there and could perform reversing and other critical functions.

The latest Beel offerings appear to replace all components except the motor.

However, the packaging of the product assumes a Modular drive and its dedicated drive compartment.

This is not immediately applicable to a WiaD although most of the circuitry may be the same.

And, it leaves out the transformer which is required for the boost function.

And, again, this is not new ... Reliance's all solid-state dc drives which were rated 7.5 HP (more than twice that on a Beel drive with a 3 HP motor, and 1.5 times that on a Beel drive with a 5 HP motor) has been available for decades, and it required 277 in for 240 out.

You know, sometimes a thorough "literature search" is required before designing a system, and such a system should not be touted unless and until it is complete, and has been proven in several end-user installations which are willing to give references, whether positive or negative.


I can specifically recall an incredibly gross mis-step by a major name in a certain aspect of stereophonic audio.

The company took a 16mm RCA optical sound recorder which was originally intended for recording "dual language" (English and Spanish ... two discrete, yet separate tracks), and attempted to turn it into a 35mm optical sound recorder which featured stereo (single-language only ... two discrete yet highly correlated tracks).

Lots of optical delays were necessary to get the two discrete tracks into time-alignment.

A couple were made but were only marginally successful. This was in the 1975 time-frame.

I suspect that company ... which will remain nameless ... never bothered to do even a cursory literature search, as Western Electric had developed a time-aligned stereo system in 1938, and after the hostilities of WW-II were over with and WECo could focus again on its non-military products, it first came out with a revolutionary optical sound recorder which featured a "flutterless" drive system * , and which incorporated that ca. 1938 stereo light valve, although it was operated as a mono light valve until the stereo variable-area product became a marketing imperative, and within a few months those half-assed RCA recorders were sent to the scrap heap of history.

The Western Electric stereo variable-area product had been in the open literature since Frayne & Wolfe's 1949 textbook ** was published, and everybody who was ANYBODY in film sound should have had a copy of that textbook, which is still just as applicable today as it was when it was fitst published SIXTY-THREE years ago.

I have documented many of the aspects of this fiasco ...

RCA Photophone - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

... there.

The bigger picture may be seen ...

Dolby Stereo - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

... there.


* Generally referred to as a "Davis 'tight-loop' Drive", after its inventor. Other tight-loop drives existed, but these did not incorporate the all-important dash-pot, for quickly coming up to speed while damping oscillations which introduced wow.

** John Frayne, Halley Wolfe, Elements of Sound Recording, New York, J. Wiley, 1949

Originally Posted by peterh5322

"OTOH, Jonathan is still struggling to get 'critical mass' - enough 10EE users to get positive reports circulating"

Third-party complete replacement 10EE drives are not new.

For perhaps two or three decades, and possibly longer, there have been such options.

Imperial and Joliet, two name but two.

Both replaced all the electronics; one added tachometer feedback.

I believe Beel's initial mis-step was assuming ....

...or ignoring? ...many things. And easily found, had he but heeded ...

Copy your forefathers, for work is carried out through knowledge; see, their words endure in writing. Open, that you may read and copy knowledge; (even) the expert will become one who is instructed.

....from "The Teaching for Merikare".

Not quite 'as old as dirt', but much easier to parse than cave paintings..

Bill

Hi the D510 is also available as a 7hp unit D710. Both the D510 and D710 unit have tacho feedback as an option