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D1-3 mount question, WIAD era

bll230

Hot Rolled
Joined
Jun 14, 2007
Location
Las Vegas
I have read many posts discussing the D1-3 mounting to try learn about other peoples' experiences, and I seem to have the opposite issue of most of the posts. A test indicator oscillates about .0004 inches on both the taper portion and the flat portion of my spindle, which I would consider acceptable for a 60 year old piece of metal; however, my chuck backplates do not seat on the taper. When I loosen the camlocks the item is immediately loose, rather than requiring the tap with a plastic hammer to loosen. I put blue on the taper seat of a new back plate and none of the blue transferred to the spindle taper. When I try to push on the backplate sideways with the cams loose there is no movement, At least as far as I can tell, so that tells me that that the taper is touching, at least an infinitely small amount.

What are my options here?

Thanks
 
Don't think the fit is off by much unless someone stoned the hell out of the register taper. If that is the case to really make it right the spindle nose might have to be reground to make it perfect. I don't think I would go into that without checking the spindle out of the machine making sure I knew what was actually out of specs.
If you only want to make the back plates fit tighter I would think grinding or lapping a little off the flat locating surface will tighten them up.
Dan
 
I have read many posts discussing the D1-3 mounting to try learn about other peoples' experiences, and I seem to have the opposite issue of most of the posts. A test indicator oscillates about .0004 inches on both the taper portion and the flat portion of my spindle, which I would consider acceptable for a 60 year old piece of metal;
Not for a 10EE, it isn't. Roughly ten times what it shipped as.

Fifty millionths TIR, 35 miliionths, optional. 0.000050", 0.000035".

MMT met or beat each number.

LeBlond, to name one competitor, countered by offering a 25 millionths Timken 0000 on one of their lines of lathe - late 1960's, early 1970's.

Not that you NEED that, but the bearings and preload may need looked at because that far out hints at death-spiral going on for them.

They do not "degrade gracefully".

But your number may not yet reflect reality. See below

however, my chuck backplates do not seat on the taper. When I loosen the camlocks the item is immediately loose, rather than requiring the tap with a plastic hammer to loosen. I put blue on the taper seat of a new back plate and none of the blue transferred to the spindle taper. When I try to push on the backplate sideways with the cams loose there is no movement, At least as far as I can tell, so that tells me that that the taper is touching, at least an infinitely small amount.

What are my options here?

Thanks

More preparation work, first of all. WHO made that backplate, and...

Divots (low spots) are of NO consequence.

Burrs, or high spots around them - any source - very much are problematic.

These have to be stoned to NOT protrude, even if you generate a minor low-spot in getting there.

Our internal taper is a section out of a #12 Jarno, but is also relieved in the middle behind the ends of the camlocks. The rear edge of the relieved section often has burrs on its lip from centre & c. being put into place. These have to be smoothed, else a centre or test bar will not be seated true to the axis of rotation.

Try checking again when you are CERTAIN there are no burrs.

Make sure the D1-3 plate you test with is of highest quality for accuracy, and in best condition - no burrs on that part, either.

Set the camlock pins to lock properly - right around 4:00 - 5:00 "O'Clock", 4:30 a good goal.

You might not actually have a problem. Or not as MUCH of one.
 
I'll get some Plastigage. I am going to put the gearbox on hold until I get the spindle worked out. I don't mind buying new spindle bearings, probably would have anyway, but I sure hope that my spindle isn't wasted.

Thanks
 
I'll get some Plastigage. I am going to put the gearbox on hold until I get the spindle worked out. I don't mind buying new spindle bearings, probably would have anyway, but I sure hope that my spindle isn't wasted.

Thanks

I have three here - one from a part-out lying on the dining room floor, other two in a '42 and a '44 Round-dial.

D1-3 needed attention, but NOT re-cut - still-good, maybe 20 'devices' fitted, my stash of uncut backplates as well as 'real' workholders of many types.

Bearings are imperfect on the only one I have SERIOUSLY checked because proper checking really IS a seriously tedious task. Ten-millionths-per division Hamilton indicator bought basically for no other purpose is only the tip of that iceberg, man-hours-wise.

One doesn't take but just a "few" readings. Polar-coordinate plots, more than one revolution, rather. I have a failing rolling-element in one of the forward angular-contact bearings. Deviation "precesses", to a different, but regular, location each revolution.

Let's hope your one responds well to a good going-over, first.
 
I ordered the plastigage. Having cleaned up all the gearbox and tail stock and ELSR parts into boxes I looked at the spindle again. I put blue on the spindle this time and took the pins out of the new backplate and spun the back plate. The picture shows the flat portion. Not perfect by any means, but no obvious high spots. I have .0005, .00075 and .001 mylar. With the pins back in the backplate a 1/4" strip of the 0.001 mylar on the taper is captured, but the two thinner ones are not. On that crude measurement say I have a gap of .0009 on my taper. That means that the flat portion needs to be ground down 8 times that or .0072 inches. It sure look like someone took a a stone or emery paper to the taper.

The plastigage will show more precisely.
 

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You could take light skim cuts across the D1-3 flat face with a nice new carbide insert until you get a proper blue up fit on the taper and flat. The spindle is not that hard and the insert will leave a beautiful finish if your bearings, etc are good. You can clean up the taper the same way if you take you time and think about what you are doing. Wait...I didn't say that ...the horror!
 
You could take light skim cuts across the D1-3 flat face with a nice new carbide insert until you get a proper blue up fit on the taper and flat. The spindle is not that hard and the insert will leave a beautiful finish if your bearings, etc are good. You can clean up the taper the same way if you take you time and think about what you are doing. Wait...I didn't say that ...the horror!

LOL!

Daryl, "the horror" would come if he happens to have only the ONE backplate and it happens to be badly cut, and the next several he gets hands onto wudda fit the spindle just fine as-is!

Though I don't think so, it surely is worth checking for the $50 - $80 cost of a backplate.

Gonna need rather more than one item of D1-3 "nose art" eventually, anyway. Now's a good time to start planning and collecting.

If, then, a re-cut IS needed, trying three plates agin' it, not just the one, will be a good comfort-level builder.
 
Yep, you'll need to determine a good master. If the nose is too far gone there is nothing you can do easily, but even on mine there was alittle precious extra in the taper and flat that allowed a bit of finesse to get a nice fit on all of my backplates/chucks ( 7 or 8 I think). Very fussy work, but it can be done. I guess if the taper is worn to a "good rattlin'" fit, you could make up a set of custom backplates or you'd have to pull the spindle, send it to Monarch and they in turn would send it out to either be welded or hard chromed and then ground back to specs. I think I priced this 20+ years ago and it was like $2500, but my memory might be off. And of course if you did this you should replace your spindle bearings while you're at it, and if you doing this you should also.....and ....and .....
 
Yep, you'll need to determine a good master. If the nose is too far gone there is nothing you can do easily, but even on mine there was alittle precious extra in the taper and flat that allowed a bit of finesse to get a nice fit on all of my backplates/chucks ( 7 or 8 I think). Very fussy work, but it can be done. I guess if the taper is worn to a "good rattlin'" fit, you could make up a set of custom backplates or you'd have to pull the spindle, send it to Monarch and they in turn would send it out to either be welded or hard chromed and then ground back to specs. I think I priced this 20+ years ago and it was like $2500, but my memory might be off. And of course if you did this you should replace your spindle bearings while you're at it, and if you doing this you should also.....and ....and .....

Got it in one. Reason that "extra" spindle is in the dining room. On which point.. not a Dog in the Manger here. I have no immediate need of it.

The "expensive" bearings were stripped off of it. Might check with member "Maynah" down east who parted it out, but I do not recall it having any other faults.

PITA to set it up on the SP and verify that, but.. if it is needed to save another 10EE, it is available.

Best if his one can be touched-up in situ, labour and risk-wise, but I don't think you want do that more than once, maybe twice, so.. get at least one more plate, see how they compare before planning the job.
 
Thanks Daryl and Bill, I have a new backplate with "Made in Germany" stamped on it, an old beat up Buck backplate off of the old beat up Buck chuck that was way past its prime, a H-S 2J collet chuck, a Monarch face plate, a step collet closer, a nice Cushman 8" 4 jaw, and a nice Cushman 8" 3 jaw outside jaw. All are loose. I can use the plastigage to see how they all compare in looseness. My plan for an inside jaw chuck was to buy a new Bison solid steel 6" inch set-tru, but I have not ordered it yet. I would hope the new German backplate would be a good master.

It looks like there is plenty of material to cut 1/2 a thousandth off the taper and 10 thousandths or so or the flat. Obviously I need to get my bearings fixed or replaced before attempting to modify the spindle. I am going to assume the inside taper is not modified, of course I will confirm that, so I can use that to rate the bearings. I need to read up on spindle removal. I have already had the long nose setscrew out of the headstock, so I know I can get it out.

This may be an open ended question, but after I pull the spindle, if the bearings are not obviously bad, had does one determine if they are good? Since I have the 0.0004 runout we can probably conclude that something is not proper as is.
 
Thanks Daryl and Bill, I have ..
More than enough to be certain, thanks. That takes a significant worry off the table.
It looks like there is plenty of material to cut 1/2 a thousandth off the taper and 10 thousandths or so or the flat. Obviously I need to get my bearings fixed or replaced before attempting to modify the spindle. I am going to assume the inside taper is not modified, of course I will confirm that, so I can use that to rate the bearings.
It will be damaged. it has "features". Even when de-burred, the pits will prevent easy use of an indicator. Not much help directly read, sorry. More follows as to what worked for me.
I need to read up on spindle removal. I have already had the long nose setscrew out of the headstock, so I know I can get it out.

This may be an open ended question, but after I pull the spindle, if the bearings are not obviously bad, had does one determine if they are good? Since I have the 0.0004 runout we can probably conclude that something is not proper as is.

Helps to reed Moore on foundations of accuracy, Connelly on rebuilding, all you can find on PM.

My add is that conventional mag-base holders for indicators are not good enough once looking for millionths. A stiffened rig is helpful. Bipod, if not tripod.

D1-3 having a few dings that bumped my better indicators about - just as the spindle bore taper had done? Once the spindle taper was cleaned up, my first go at better measurements used the protruding ground surface of a virgin-new Stark #12 Jarno dead-centre.

I'm an Accountant and Statistician, too, so I built a list of many readings.

I had what I called a "D" shape to the array.

A deviation that did not clock with the spindle, but moved, and in a regular precession.

Family circumstances intervened. Time passed. When next I went back to it, I had one of Brian Miller's nice test bars. Cylinder, now, not the flank of a cone.

Same effect, better stability, and I was convinced I had detected a failing rolling element in the bearing. Total deviation is 130 Millionths, full rotation. And it moves.

Now - BECAUSE the fault DOES precess? It would not show anywhere near as badly on a turned workpiece had the indicator tip been a cutting tool.

Think that through. Effect would be similar to a "moving" spring pass, rotating around the circumference, smoothing out the OD.

And .. it means the lathe is still more usable than not.

Given how rolling-element bearings fail - one or more elements before the rest, not with perfectly distributed wear?

I suspect many among us have been "living with" this sort of thing to one level or another, and for long years.

Bearings costing as they do? The "future" type of work and amount of it in store for our 10EE? Face it.. going mano-a-mano with a modern CNC spindle is probably a right silly thought.

For most of us, it might not be a bad idea to keep right on so doing. "JF living with that."

The house needs a new roof more than I need a 50-millionths spindle, anyway.

YMMV
 
I might have missed it, but have you put an indicator on the inside taper.? Usually this taper is not used very much, thus does not suffer much wear. Rig up a lever somehow and push or pull the spindle, statically and if you are getting that .0004 movement, those bearings are the culprit.
 
Usually this taper is not used very much, thus does not suffer much wear.

"Wear", not, that part held true.

Battering, hence dings and burrs, rather. Folks who ran these lathes got tired. Often. Both of mine - '42 and '44 - saw WW II service, Korean War, Cold War as well.

Try inserting a dead centre, center adaptor, or collet closer "thimble" without first biasing yourself to uber-careful. See how often the back edge of it strikes the front edge of the shoulder in the taper right back of the relief under the D1-3 cams.

Hard to NOT do that unless paying close attention. Might not have to "think like Bubba" on a 10EE. Just think like a good man, but a tired man, wartime shifts, deadlines and quotas to hit or beat, and most of all "company" lathe, not his, personally.

Multiply by 60 or 70 years. Or even 10 or 20.

S**t happens. And it accumulates.
 
Bill is right about the inside taper. Lots of minute scratches etc. I have the long setscrew out out as pictured, and obviously the front cap bolts, but the spindle doesn't want to move forward. Before I start putting more muscle on the puller just wanted to make sure there was nothing else to remove.

Edit, I added the picture om my rear bearing. New Departure 5210 with 21XX etched on the outer race.
 

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Bill is right about the inside taper. Lots of minute scratches etc. I have the long setscrew out out as pictured, and obviously the front cap bolts, but the spindle doesn't want to move forward. Before I start putting more muscle on the puller just wanted to make sure there was nothing else to remove.

I can't be in your head, feel your hands, nor see through your eyes, but will advise..

10EE spindle removal one researches THOROUGHLY.

All is not as first appears, nor obvious until afterwards. THEN it is simple.
 
I have read and reread all the posts I could come across about the removal. You are absolutely right, this procedure one spends hours learning before any doing.
 
I have read and reread all the posts I could come across about the removal. You are absolutely right, this procedure one spends hours learning before any doing.

True of most things with any complexity. 10EE is waaay simpler than most subsystems of any motorcar.

But we don't have 60 years of cumulative evolutionary hands-on experience with them.

For one thing, the uncooperative beasts just don't wear-out nor BREAK often enough anyone can remember and onpass between one HUMAN generation to the next.

Especially when they go stubborn and skip a whole human generation between needs for TLC.

Or more than one.

:D
 








 
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