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Electrical Schematic EE-2674 10EE SN 19377

rakort

Hot Rolled
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Apr 27, 2011
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Central Wisconsin
Sharing Electrical Schematic 10EE SN 19377 EE2674 which replaced EE2452 and EE3216?

Schematic that I thought some might find useful. I'll probably end up redrawing it on AutoCAD to prepare for my VFD conversion. This is for the reliance MG set in my lathe that had a "promised" delivery date of 12-5-42 to IHC and a tag date of 5/43.

My Lathe Schmatic (2).jpg
 
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Drawing EE2764 is for the later round-dial DC control panels. It DOES NOT replace EE3216, which is for the "standard" square-dial DC control panels without ELSR. EE2452 is the diagram for inline exciter machines with 115V exciters (which was not typical). EE2764 does not replace it either. You need the right diagram for the DC panel that you actually have. There are significant differences between the panels and there is no one diagram that covers them all. With EE2674 you could probably figure out an inline exciter panel, but it would be of very limited use on a square-dial panel.

Where did you get this drawing?

Cal
 
Drawing EE2764 is for the later round-dial DC control panels. It DOES NOT replace EE3216, which is for the "standard" square-dial DC control panels without ELSR. EE2452 is the diagram for inline exciter machines with 115V exciters (which was not typical). EE2764 does not replace it either. You need the right diagram for the DC panel that you actually have. There are significant differences between the panels and there is no one diagram that covers them all. With EE2674 you could probably figure out an inline exciter panel, but it would be of very limited use on a square-dial panel.

Where did you get this drawing?

Cal

I got the drawing from Monarch.

Here is a snip of the title block....weird that they noted those other drawing numbers in the title block.

Capture.JPG
 
The second block says "Replaced by", not "Replaces". Drawing EE-3216 has "EE-2764" in it "Replaces" block and the "Replaced by" block is empty.

It's true that the EE-2764 DC control panel (and the accompanying in-line exciter) replaced the EE-2452 panel and that the EE-3216 panel in turn replaced the EE-2764 panel. But as I said, the newer drawings don't eliminate the need for the previous version drawings: you need the drawing that goes with the panel, MG and other options (such as ELSR) that were actually installed on your machine.

Unfortunately, Monarch DOES NOT always send out the correct version of the wiring diagram for round-dials. In fact, they always send out EE-2764 when you have a round-dial 10EE, regardless of what version of the DC panel was actually installed. As far as I know, square-dial MG machines always get EE-3216, even if you have ELSR or rapid reverse options, which need different drawings.

This is why I don't recommend that people with round-dial 10EEs spend the money to buy the manual and diagram from Monarch. (I'm all for supporting Monarch, but this is a case where they don't provide good value to their customers.) Rather than print out a nice clear manual from a PDF file based on the best scan available, they just keep photo copying the same muddy originals.

I visited Monarch several years and discussed this very issue with the president, Harry Camp. I offered to help them straighten out the round-dial manuals and wiring diagrams, but sadly got no interest in the idea.

Please post a photo of your DC control panel so that I can see if you have the correct version of the drawing.

Cal
 
The second block says "Replaced by", not "Replaces". Drawing EE-3216 has "EE-2764" in it "Replaces" block and the "Replaced by" block is empty.

It's true that the EE-2764 DC control panel (and the accompanying in-line exciter) replaced the EE-2452 panel and that the EE-3216 panel in turn replaced the EE-2764 panel. But as I said, the newer drawings don't eliminate the need for the previous version drawings: you need the drawing that goes with the panel, MG and other options (such as ELSR) that were actually installed on your machine.

Unfortunately, Monarch DOES NOT always send out the correct version of the wiring diagram for round-dials. In fact, they always send out EE-2764 when you have a round-dial 10EE, regardless of what version of the DC panel was actually installed. As far as I know, square-dial MG machines always get EE-3216, even if you have ELSR or rapid reverse options, which need different drawings.

This is why I don't recommend that people with round-dial 10EEs spend the money to buy the manual and diagram from Monarch. (I'm all for supporting Monarch, but this is a case where they don't provide good value to their customers.) Rather than print out a nice clear manual from a PDF file based on the best scan available, they just keep photo copying the same muddy originals.

I visited Monarch several years and discussed this very issue with the president, Harry Camp. I offered to help them straighten out the round-dial manuals and wiring diagrams, but sadly got no interest in the idea.

Please post a photo of your DC control panel so that I can see if you have the correct version of the drawing.

Cal

As always thank you for your insight. I suspect I'm hanging around here for a while asking dumb 10EE questions as I restore this round dial. :)

So disappointed with Monarch if they possibly gave me the wrong elec drawings. I do see plenty of things that don't match up. I read here of an actual round dial quick change gear box drawing since loaned out and lost forever and not replaceable. I admire your efforts to try and work with them to document and preserve an amazing piece of machinery.

any who... DC control panel pictures for now...

And meanwhile I am running a quick solvent flush through the quick change box and getting ready to fill it with it's first oil in a while. I ran through all the gears and so far the box seems good!

Panel-1.jpg

IMG_20180316_185050344.jpg

IMG_20180316_185059307.jpg
 
Unfortunately, Monarch DOES NOT always send out the correct version of the wiring diagram for round-dials. In fact, they always send out EE-2764 when you have a round-dial 10EE, regardless of what version of the DC panel was actually installed. As far as I know, square-dial MG machines always get EE-3216, even if you have ELSR or rapid reverse options, which need different drawings.

This is why I don't recommend that people with round-dial 10EEs spend the money to buy the manual and diagram from Monarch. (I'm all for supporting Monarch, but this is a case where they don't provide good value to their customers.) Rather than print out a nice clear manual from a PDF file based on the best scan available, they just keep photo copying the same muddy originals.

Please post a photo of your DC control panel so that I can see if you have the correct version of the drawing.

Cal

So still disturbed that Monarch sent me out a "generic" round dial drawing set for $75. I do see plenty of differences and am disappointed at the quality of the photocopies. Currently I've been looking closely at the DC control panel verses the EE2674 drawing. Things are starting to line up, but this is only a preliminary look see...

SO looking at the terminal board at the lower end of the panel it does compare well with the drawing (except the terminal labels are mirror over or viewed as if from the rear of the terminal board) but the labels agree.

Terminal Panel.jpg

Terminal Panel-drawing.JPG

Looking at the drawing glued on the back of the DC control panel cover....although very hard to read seems to also agree the EE2674.


BTW, what is the terminal panel/plate made of, phenolic?
 
As always thank you for your insight. I suspect I'm hanging around here for a while asking dumb 10EE questions as I restore this round dial. :)

So disappointed with Monarch if they possibly gave me the wrong elec drawings. I do see plenty of things that don't match up. I read here of an actual round dial quick change gear box drawing since loaned out and lost forever and not replaceable. I admire your efforts to try and work with them to document and preserve an amazing piece of machinery.

any who... DC control panel pictures for now...

...

View attachment 223300
Brian,

You do have the correct wiring diagram for your panel (assuming that you don't have ELSR or rapid reverse options). The majority of round-dials do have EE-2674 panels, so Monarch gets it right more often than wrong.

Your DC Control Panel has definitely seen better days. I can't tell from the photo, but the contacts on your forward contactor bear a closer look. The two contacts on the left carry the armature current and look like they could have some erosion of the contact pads. In addition, you have some damage to the insulators. There should be two of the black, rectangular dividers on each contactor, you're missing one on each. The U-shaped white insulators are called "arc chutes". There are "blow out coils" behind the three outer contacts on each side of the either relay. They discharge when the contact opens, creating a magnetic field that stretches the arc into a loop to help break the arc. The arc chutes direct the arc upwards to keep it from damaging adjacent contacts, etc.

Here's what the contacts, etc., on my forward contactor look like:
IMG_3623.jpg

9100 (Bill) has rebuilt a few of these panels (although I'm not sure if he's still doing that). IIRC, he made replacement arc chutes from a machinable ceramic material. Hopefully he'll chime in and let us know. Here's a link to his thread about a panel that he rebuilt:
There's a discussion about arc chutes here:
The wire to the brake contact on the bottom of your forward contactor has been repaired (after a fashion). As long as it's not causing problems, it's probably OK. But given that you plan to add an emergency stop button and use dynamic braking, it might be best to replace the wire, so that the brake doesn't fail when you need it most. Regular wire isn't flexible enough to use for the moving contacts, you need an ultra-flexible wire with a large number of strands, something like this, which has 1000 individual strands of very fine wire: Amazon.com: 1 Gauge Silicone Wire 1 Feet - 1 AWG Silicone Wire - Flexible Silicone Wire: Cell Phones & Accessories

I notice that some of the wires connected to the terminals at the bottom of the panel appear to have been replaced. Most of the original wires, with the exception of C1, C2 & C3, were 10 AWG and the same baby blue color as the wire on terminal A2. Have a close look at any of the smaller gauge wires. The original wires all had metal tags to label them. Any wires that doesn't have a tag matching the one on A2 should be checked.

Cal
 
So still disturbed that Monarch sent me out a "generic" round dial drawing set for $75. I do see plenty of differences and am disappointed at the quality of the photocopies. Currently I've been looking closely at the DC control panel verses the EE2674 drawing. Things are starting to line up, but this is only a preliminary look see...

SO looking at the terminal board at the lower end of the panel it does compare well with the drawing (except the terminal labels are mirror over or viewed as if from the rear of the terminal board) but the labels agree.

View attachment 223516

View attachment 223515

Looking at the drawing glued on the back of the DC control panel cover....although very hard to read seems to also agree the EE2674.


BTW, what is the terminal panel/plate made of, phenolic?
You can download a nice, high-quality scan of the round-dial manual here: www.metalillness.com :: View topic - Monarch 1ee Manuals
There are some errors in the manual, mostly mismatches between the titles on the parts lists vs. the parts sheets.

Before you spend the time redrawing the wiring diagram, send me an e-mail and I'll send you my cleaned up, color-coded version of the drawing. Also note that the sheet is really two drawings: the right side has a schematic diagram of the DC portion of the controls; the remainder of the diagram has the wiring connections. In general, the layout of the terminals and the components on the wiring section maps fairly well with that layout of the actual terminals and components. The symbols used on the diagram are not very standard and it takes quite a while to figure out what some of them are.

It's funny that the labels on your terminal panel are mirrored. (I've never seen that before.) I bet they used the stencil for the back of the panel on the front.

I'm not sure what the panel is made of. Phenolic is probably a good guess. One of the Bills may know.

Cal
 








 
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