Thread: The exciting life of Lucille

Originally Posted by DaveE907

Unfortunately that coolant got places over the years that should be looked at. Definitely drop the apron sump for starters, good chance it has goo in it and the apron pump needs service. Didn't see the seal for the crossfeed, is it still in the saddle? I've seen lathes without that seal, it's a direct path for coolant and crap into the apron.

Seal? There's a seal? well, the only thing i came across that i would think is a seal is on the end of the cross slide itself is a plate behind the wheel that covers the gib screws. that is packed with about 3/16 of some kind of hard board. thats the only thing ive come across that i would call a seal, but then again i wasn't looking for one either. when i finish my coffee i will have to go looking.

I really need to find some exploded parts drawings. that will probably help me more than anything else in the world right now. something with exploded views of everything complete with all the seals and gizmos that go in it and part numbers. i will wait to see what monarch sends me with my manual and give them another call and see what we can do. Then again, they are just 5 hours from here and i do poses a rare skill set in computers, maybe i can make a trade =-) the ultimate would be if they could send me a micro-fiche of the assembly prints. i could take those to the library and get all the info i would ever need. but who knows.

As far as my goals for this project, i have neither the tools nor the skills to do anything of the level of Harry's 30 inch wreck or any of the other true restorations that have been chronicled in these hallowed boards. i am going to tear her down as far as needed to ensure she is mechanically sound, fix her up, probably strip and paint her, and start using her. in several years when i have acquired the necessary skills and equipment to do a true back to factory spec or better remanufacture job, maybe. Im simply not at that level yet. hell, i still havn't fully figured out how im going to get her off this damn pallet.

Originally Posted by beckley23

The piece in the 5th picture is the cross slide chip shield. The clipped ends should be under the cross slide, with the straight end facing the operator. The slot on the bottom catches on a small screw in the dovetail top of the cross slide ways, sticking up about a 1/16", look in the "Wreck Update", IIRC, I had to relocate the screw, because I couldn't get the old one out.

=-) someone put it in backwards then. Your explanation makes a whole lot more sense. =-)

S,

Great job on the photos and the write up. I also like your album on Picasa.

This is the bottom of the compound, yes? (You say cross-slide).

https://picasaweb.google.com/scphant...96442404104258

I just uploaded a bunch of photos with descriptions of removing the cross-slide and taper attachment. These were taken of a square-dial that I worked on some time back:

square-dial pictures by cal10ee - Photobucket

When I put them up I didn't realize that you had gotten this far. Check out the amount of swarf inside of the old girl. And she came from a university.

I'm working on posting a procedure for pulling the saddle and apron. I have it written, just not ready to post.

My prediction is that your taper attachment is going to be pretty nasty inside. I don't consider coolant a plus on a used 10EE because of the damage that it does.

As Dave mentioned, the original apron oil lines were steel. Most were copper plated, so it's easy to assume that they were solid copper. Check yours with a magnet.

The plate that you asked about is called the "dust plate":


There should have been a set screw at the back that engages the slot in the bottom of the dust plate to limit its travel:

You have to know to remove or turn it down flush before you try to pull the cross-slide off or you will damage it. More than one has gotten sheared off by a ham-fisted mechanic.

Does anyone know when they started putting zig-zag oil grooves on both the saddle and the bottom of the cross-slide. The machine in the above photos doesn't have them.

(Man this thread is moving fast. Four posts while I was off composing...)

Cal

S,

You can download the manual for a 1965 square-dial here. It should get you started until yours gets here:

www.metalillness.com :: View topic - Monarch 10ee Manuals

There are parts drawings, but nothing that shows how the entire carriage goes together. I've never seen an assembly drawing of the entire carriage. There's an assembly drawing for the apron around, but I'm not sure that Monarch will send it to you in the package. Please let me know about that.

Cal

The seal that Dave is referring to is p#655-2 on the cross feed screw page in the manual. If you look through the hole in the saddle with the screw removed you should see it, it shouldn't come out with the screw.
Harry

Originally Posted by scphantm

hell, i still havn't fully figured out how im going to get her off this damn pallet.

What workd for me on a very stout pallet that had been decked with 2 1/2"-actual plank, was to ream the cored hole at TS end, ream one and drill one new (to clear motor mounting plate) at HS end, then....

With a carpenter's reciprocating saw, cut a notch or 'well' in the pallet so as to allow placing a common garage mechanic's bottle or 'flloor' jack.
Take up the weight at TS, lift further if need be, to permit insertion of - in my case a machinery skate with long 3/4" adjusting bolt, ELSE a DeVlieg-style mounting foot. Insure one can crank that down to carry the load just clear of the pallet, but leave the load on the pallet for now...

... and move on to the next of the three points and repeat.

When complete, take up the weight on the jack screws. The lathe then stands on its designed-in 'kinematic' three-point mount, or near-as-dammit, with the adjusting screw-jacks shanks at long extension through wells or notches in a pallet that no longer has any load on it.

Cut the pallet to pieces with the saw, and pull the scraps out from under the lathe and aside.

I used a steel-wheeled 2 1/2 T floor jack that needed no more than its removable 'cup' pulled-off to get under the casting. If your pallet is not as 'tall' as mine was, you may need to 'walk' the machine up on a stack of scraps to get clearance to work.

Once the pallet scraps were dragged away, 17120 '42 round dial could be easily spun in her own length, shoved in a curve, 'crab' or straight line in any direction on the skates described here:

Advice on machinery skates

Adam and I used two more of those skates in a temporary fashion to move a 5200 lb avoir Quartet milling machine.

My machine shop

.. which is still on its two pallets but now in my garage.

Plan is to use the same type of skates in 2-point vs three point and same incremental jack and cut-away method to get the 4' x 5' x 7" tall pallet out from under the base unit. THIS time the pallets are untreated wood so the scraps can go toward the wintertime heat budget.
For the 10EE, the screw pass through holes drilled center of each skatem and serve as both jacking point and pivot. For the mill, the skates will be at center-mass, one each side, and the jacking screws at its original four corner points for the in-use leveling.

Bill

cal, with the pic you asked about, no, thats the top of the saddle.

cal, your picture has that chip cover oriented the same as i found mine, Harry is saying it should be the other way around. Im kinda siding with harry because one of the things i noticed that worried me before was with the clipped ends pointing out, you could wind out the cross slide to the point where it collided with the back of the handle. that was my first clue something wasn't right with it. i didn't notice a set screw, but that doesn't mean there isn't one. i will look again when i get back to it tomorrow.

bill, my uncle is a master mason (you call him a brick layer be prepared to pick yourself up off the ground with a sore jaw) so i was thinking of getting some heavy 3 inch angle that they use for headers in brick work, a piece across the head stock end, a piece across the tail stock end, tie them together with either welded beams or ratchet straps (most likely welded beams so they don't twist) and get my floor jack under each of the four wings that overhang the pallet. then i can jack them up, one corner at a time, block it off, slide the pallet out from under it, then lower them on skates. but the more i think about it, the more im liking your idea better. probably a great deal easier.

I do agree with cal on the coolant. at first i was excited that the coolant system was there, but the more i see of the damage it can cause, the more im thinking i won't hook it back up. Im just a hobbyist, a vast majority of what im going to be doing is aluminum and brass, so given the damage done, im kinda leaning towards pulling the cooling system out (or at least disconnecting it) and buying a case of squeeze bottles for various cutting fluids.

i anticipate a very long list of seals and gaskets on order from monarch very soon. i wonder if they were nice enough to bundle them into some kind of master rebuild kit, kinda like carburetors, but i highly doubt it.

OH, the way scrapers on the taper attachment (i didn't look at the others yet) are 3 layers of what looks like gasket paper stacked together. shouldn't those be heavy felt?

Originally Posted by scphantm

cso they don't twist) and get my floor jack under each of the four wings that overhang the pallet. then i can jack them up, one corner at a time, block it off, slide the pallet out from under it, then lower them on skates. but the more i think about it, the more im liking your idea better. probably a great deal easier.

Anything much less stout than a saddle adapter for a Class 60 float bridge WILL twist under the mass of a 10EE. Too much work. Too much risk and cost. It was designed to remain rigid with just a three point mount. Use that feature - from the bottom - to your advantage and
let it be its own lifting frame. Wooden pallets are expendable.

Adding: CAVEAT: A 10EE is (at least) as arse-heavy as a Dexter horse. Don't get too enthusiastic about lifting the TS end, more especially on an MG model that has its innards out for going-over. They've been known to roll bass-ackwards saddle-over-HS, with nasty side effects. Ditto side-to-side. Not a lot of risk with slow jacking, but have a care if you try to shove or lever.

i anticipate a very long list of seals and gaskets on order from monarch very soon. i wonder if they were nice enough to bundle them into some kind of master rebuild kit, kinda like carburetors, but i highly doubt it.

Volume just isn't there. Given how many other makers are mere historical ghosts, we are lucky to still HAVE Monarch at all.

OH, the way scrapers on the taper attachment (i didn't look at the others yet) are 3 layers of what looks like gasket paper stacked together. shouldn't those be heavy felt?

Some perhaps are. Monarch had several iterations of way 'scrapers'. Some of the best reported used both soft and hard(er) materials as laminations. Implement anything reasonable, take care of what you have, and refrain from blasting swarf under 'em with shop air, and it will last longer than even a young man is likely to care about.

Bill

Harry is correct on the cover orientation. It does seem a lot of them have it in backwards, as was the case with mine. One thing that can happen when it is backwards is the corners get jammed into the semi circular cut out and then the cover does not slide as intended (again that's what happened with mine). When installed with the trimmed corners in the back it can slide back further without an interference.

Paul

Originally Posted by PaulM

Harry is correct on the cover orientation. It does seem a lot of them have it in backwards, as was the case with mine. One thing that can happen when it is backwards is the corners get jammed into the semi circular cut out and then the cover does not slide as intended (again that's what happened with mine). When installed with the trimmed corners in the back it can slide back further without an interference.

Paul

You're right. I didn't notice that in the photo. I'm pretty sure we put it back in the correct way around.

Here's a photo of the underside of my round-dial's cross-slide with the dust plate in place:


I'm not sure about square-dials, but on a round-dial the open end of the slot has a tiny pin pressed in to catch the set screw and keep the dust plate from getting pushed into the cross-feed dial.

I suspect that what happens some times is that the pin is damaged during disassembly and the plate won't stay put, so it gets flipped around and put back in.

Cal

"Also on belts, since you have a modular drive check the dimensions before you order. Some modulars came with 3V900 belts - A series belts will interfere with each other."

3V900s are narrow, ganging equivalents of 3L, which are not gangable without being hand-selected. A90s are wider, ganging equivalents of 4L, and is the correct size for many 10EEs which have a small frame 3 or 5 HP spindle motors.

I don't know why Monarch went with 3V900s. Surely, A85s, as on early WiaDs and A90s, as on late WiaDs and early Modulars, were a good choice.

Well, i had a frustrating day at work today so i decided to vent by working on Lucille a bit.

Again, all the pictures are available here

https://picasaweb.google.com/scphant...63944844213650

Im just posting highlights here.

First, UPS man brought me some gifts today



after removing the dial indicator on the cross slide, we moved on to the end block for the lead screw and feed rod



Removing it is pretty straight forward, only thing is it took a bit to realize that those slotted screws are actually alignment pins. once that was realized, the block popped off with some slight persuasion from a 1 pound dead blow.

when i couldn't get the thing to simply slide off, i decided to remove the side cover of this block to see if there was a retainer on it.


It was so packed full of grease i didn't realize there was in fact a spring clip holding the feed screw on. but that wasn't realized until the block had a short, yet meaningful conversation with my 2 pound dead blow.



As you can see, bearing and all started coming out. i didn't see anything that would stop it so i figured what the hell, take it out too. turns out that was a VERY good idea, as you see in the next photo.



I am by no means a master mechanic or mechanical engineer, but in my experience, ball bearings are not supposed to turn in that direction. yup, its shot, VERY shot, it will have to be replaced.



Once i realized there was a spring clip holding the bearing on, was able to remove it, then i had the opportunity to spend 10 minutes looking for it again. Once that was found, on the other side of the garage, under the trash can, i was able to tap off the bearing and that guide collar. resulting shaft looks just fine to me. no worries here.

take note of the crud on the feed rod below it. this will become an issue later in the lesson.



This is the tail stock guide bearing on the back side of the saddle. WOW, is this shot. I wish this old girl could talk so she can tell me how exactly someone was able to take not one, but two chunks of metal off the outer lip of the bearing. yea, gonna need a new set of these.



The front bearing from the back side. not nearly as shot as the rear, but shot none the less. im going to need a full set.



So after removing a few other odds and ends from the top (see the album if your really interested) i was able to break loose the saddle. blocked it off, backed the bolts, and it fell right down. no problems here.

These next few pictures, i won't comment. i will simply let the pictures speak for themselves.







wow, scary. lines not hooked up, lines broken off, lines buried in RTV, very scary stuff. taking this saddle off was a very good idea.



Now we see trouble. first of all, you are not supposed to find RUST inside the apron of a precision lathe. second, that pinion gear is worn down to the point where i can easily shave with the teeth if i wanted too. Third, i couldnt get a picture of it, but the bottom of the apron is completely packed with sludge. judging from the pattern of rust across the top, coolant was leaking in thru the seam and just collecting in the apron for a long time.

isn't there supposed to be a gasket in between the apron and saddle?



My first thought with this was "how in the hell did a mouse get in here?" im not exactly sure what this is supposed to be, someone will have to enlighten me.



This is whats under that packing. again, not sure if this is right, i will have to search some other threads (starting with the wreck thread) to see if i can find a picture of what its supposed to look like.



And this is the point where i ran into real trouble. the apron slid to the end of the feed rod and stopped. hard. remember the crud on the feed rod before that i told you to remember? yea, that was a mistake. it won't budge. 3 pound dead blow makes it laugh. its not going ANYWHERE. so after 45 minutes of yanking on it like a 13 yo with his new favorite toy, without the payoff mind you, i sat down and began to contemplate my options. it occurred to me that i began measuring out my logging chains to see if i could reach the telephone pole at the end of my drive way so i had an anchor point for my come along, it was a good idea to call it a night.

now, if i unbolt the bottom plate here



will i be able to remove the apron and feed screw at the same time?

Originally Posted by scphantm

I am by no means a master mechanic or mechanical engineer, but in my experience, ball bearings are not supposed to turn in that direction. yup, its shot, VERY shot, it will have to be replaced.

There are spherical aligning bearings that will look like that, but I cdon't think it is one.

wow, scary. lines not hooked up, lines broken off, lines buried in RTV, very scary stuff. taking this saddle off was a very good idea.

A little brake cleaner & elbow grease and it'll be nice & clean.

isn't there supposed to be a gasket in between the apron and saddle?

Nope. Some folks put some permatex or the like there, I don't.

My first thought with this was "how in the hell did a mouse get in here?" im not exactly sure what this is supposed to be, someone will have to enlighten me.

Cotton waste packing for soaking up the oil and slowing the draining through the several lines into that sump.

This is whats under that packing. again, not sure if this is right, i will have to search some other threads (starting with the wreck thread) to see if i can find a picture of what its supposed to look like.

Looks OK to me - you might try pumping some oil through the lines, the one that leads to the backside of the halfnuts is often clogged at the nuts.

now, if i unbolt the bottom plate here

Nope, taper pin through each. Pick the narrow side (I use calipers), rotate it to the front and pot it on out and the leadscrew and drive rod will come out. Block up the apron first to level it and support when it comes loose.

As Russ noted spherical bearings, and those are what is fitted there (At least on my EE) those bearings as well as the gib bearings can be had very cheaply through VXB. Searching will reveal a lot, I'm fairly certain I posted details on what I used.

+1 on the rest of Russ's comments as well. The amount of swarf in the bottom of the saddle is similar to what I found. Only worry or replace once you clean it out and confirm that things are broken and or not hooked up.

Paul

Originally Posted by scphantm

Well, i had a frustrating day at work today so i decided to vent by working on Lucille a bit.
...

And this is the point where i ran into real trouble. the apron slid to the end of the feed rod and stopped. hard. remember the crud on the feed rod before that i told you to remember? yea, that was a mistake. it won't budge. 3 pound dead blow makes it laugh. its not going ANYWHERE. so after 45 minutes of yanking on it like a 13 yo with his new favorite toy, without the payoff mind you, i sat down and began to contemplate my options. it occurred to me that i began measuring out my logging chains to see if i could reach the telephone pole at the end of my drive way so i had an anchor point for my come along, it was a good idea to call it a night.
...
now, if i unbolt the bottom plate here



will i be able to remove the apron and feed screw at the same time?

Reading through your post and the comments in your album, it seems to me that you're way too eager break out the hammer when things don't come apart the way you expect them to. 99% of the time when working on machine tools, particularly with Monarch lathes, when something doesn't come apart it's because you don't know how to take them apart. Hammers are rarely the solution. When something is stuck, it's usually better to think of a way to jack the pieces apart, using screw force, than to beat on them. If you can't get something apart, stop and ask here. Guys like Harry and the Daves have been there and done that and know how things come apart.

I don't know the setup of the leadscrew and feed-rod on your lathe, but if there isn't a feed-rod clutch it's probably put together with taper pins (as others have already pointed out). If you look at post #21 of this thread, I have some hard won suggestions on dealing with taper pins:

10ee base swap can it be done?

For future readers, it's often a good idea to disconnect the feed-rod and leadscrew from the gearbox BEFORE the carriage is disassembled. Step one is to unbolt the leadscrew and feed-rod support bracket on the tailstock end. Then once the once the taper pins, shear pins or whatever that connect the leadscrew and feed-rod to the gearbox have been removed, the half nut can be closed and the apron handwheel, via the apron feed rack, can be used to jack the feed-rod and leadscrew out of their sockets. Of course, you need to look at what's going on and decide if this tactic will work on the situation at hand.

Cal

yea, your probably right cal. that post on taking those pins out is brilliant, how do you come up with this stuff?

Your pinion gear is going to be a problem, as I'm sure its mating rack is toast as well. I had literally the same problem and was able to pick up an almost pristine apron/rack off of ebay. I was extremely lucky. Fortunately, the pinion gear and rack are the same for the square dial as well as the earlier round dial machines.

yea, i tend to agree with you daryl. my funds are limited for a month or two due to having to buy a car, so until then im concentrating on dismantle, document, learn, clean, inspect, and create shopping list. i wasn't able to get a good look at the rack, but the look that i got buried in the grease and grime was the area starting about 3 or 4 inches back from the headstock, going a further 4 inches was hogged out pretty bad. but i have to get the apron off before i take that rack out and really inspect it.

I found on mine, that those racks can be swapped, as it seems they were all made on the same machine over many years. You may have to slightly fudge the locating pin holes. As far as the pinion, in a worse case scenario if a replacement can't be found, would be to grind ( it's hard) down the offending gear to a accurate stub and press on/pin a new gear. I don't know if the gear/rack is a standard Industrial size, as this would greatly simplify the repair, otherwise you'll have to make the gear.

I am going to be working on Lucille again this weekend. i have an idea and can't find anything from searching about it. I spent some time tonight taking a close look at the gear cluster inside the apron. a lot of crud and some surface rust. all the gears are tight, the teeth are good, other than a really good cleaning, i see no reason to dismantle it.

i think im going to repair the oil system and put it back together. the issue i have is cleaning the inside of the apron. after i fix the oil system, my current plan is to put it in my parts washer and soak it 10 or 20 minutes. flush it out a few times in the parts washer, then flush it out with kerosene a few times, then flush with oil and put it all back together. similar process as recommended before. my question is would i run the risk of damaging the clutches in this thing or would i be better off not doing the parts washer step?