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Got Me A 10EE; Hopefully It's Not A Junker...(warning: contains more questions!)

TheOldCar

Stainless
Joined
Jul 31, 2011
Location
Utah, USA
Here's the 10EE I picked up in Pueblo, Colorado for a price I don't dare to say. It is currently getting needed attention before I try turning something. Despite the negatives about this lathe, I am still very excited to get it usable (and trying to focus on the positives).

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FIRST, thanks to you here on PM who have provided VOLUMES of information on how to use, service, rescue, refurbish, repair and retrofit these lathes.

My personal thanks to Cal Haines for this post: http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/monarch-lathes/10ee-no-exciter-voltage-257346/

I was able to get the exciter on mine to work after some serious flashing with a car battery, replacing some crumbling wires and cleaning the exciter innards.

The 10EE is an early square dial, made in November 1945. It's drive is the piggyback exciter style MG unit. It has taper attachment that looks good, and just one sloppy repaint. The ways look and feel exceptional (no ridge anywhere) but I'm sure the carriage has it's share of ware. The gap between carriage and flat (tailstock) way is 0.003...at least it isn't touching yet, right?

I am currently flushing the headstock and refilling, plus making new sight glasses and gaskets. My '54 Series 60 sight glasses are glass; these ones are plastic. I just turned one of the new sights (plexiglass) today after work, and it turned out great.

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Someday I will repaint, but for now I just want to use it!

HERE is my first big question: Is 0.00015 OK for spindle runout? (Bearings sound fine). That is at the cam lock nose. The inner taper is more like 0.0002. And this runout was much worse when I first checked. It started at 0.0009 :cryin: but as a last ditch effort, I decided to mess with preload. I read and read and read posts about people trying to adjust preload, feeling any success would be unlikely.

And after opening up the headstock, I saw obvious proof someone had already given the preload bearing screw a whack, which left me thinking no chance for any improvement. But I decided to try anyway, and started rapping it tighter with a punch and hammer (carefully). This made it worse, up to 0.0012! So I tried loosening, then creeping back up. here's what I got:

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After multiple baby taps (and cold sweats) I decided to stop when I reached 0.00015 :scratchchin: Hey, that puts me at 150 millionths!:crazy: :dunce::cloud9::dunce::cloud9::dunce::cloud9:
As far as pulling on a dowel against the spindle bore, I can get around 0.0008 play but it springs back.

Honestly, it is OK to run an EE with that amount of runout...right?

As is probably obvious, I am no pro. Just paranoid. And for my redneck skills, 0.00015 runout is BIG improvement compared to my other lathes. Even my worn out Series 60 (which RULES) has much more. Any advice appreciated!

Here's the Sheldon my 10EE is replacing, on it's way to a new owner.

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Honestly, it is OK to run an EE with that amount of runout...right?

You will NEED to run it. And flush and refill the HS bearings again. Twice more won't hurt. They only use a few ounces, right?

Meanwhile carefully find (they WILL exist) the dings, burrs, and rust+dried lube and coolant varnish and PROPERLY deal with those so your DTI has an easier task - whether on the D1 taper, or on a 12 Jarno test bar.

If you got this far, you can probably get the TIR down further yet. Even so, it ain't too shabby compared to most Old Iron, is it?

:)

Bill
 
As is probably obvious, I am no pro. Just paranoid. And for my redneck skills, 0.00015 runout is BIG improvement compared to my other lathes. Even my worn out Series 60 (which RULES) has much more. Any advice appreciated!

You might want to get it running and run the spindle for 1/2 an hour or so, make sure that it's at temp (and not over) when you're playing with the preload.
 
Last night I flushed the 3 headstock cavities yet again, made 2 more sight glasses, refilled and started the lathe. Ran for about 30 min. and headstock gets only slightly warm. The speed adjustment is very nice. Stopping and reversing the spindle works excellent, too, except only at the highest RPM. The DC motor makes a loud arcing noise and shoots a band of sparks when stopping/reversing. Again, only at the highest RPM. It won't do it at 2000, just right at the end (2500).

The carriage is next for service, having already flushed multiple times. Oil "pan" is off and cleaned (lots of jelly in the bottom). The pump is sending way oil where it should, but I still need put a new strainer on it and clean everything.

More was planned for the 10EE yesterday, but I had to trailer my worn out '65 GTO convertible home because the motor seized. :cryin::angry:

I'm back to more searching the PM archives now.
 
Last night I flushed the 3 headstock cavities yet again, made 2 more sight glasses, refilled and started the lathe. Ran for about 30 min. and headstock gets only slightly warm. The speed adjustment is very nice. Stopping and reversing the spindle works excellent, too, except only at the highest RPM. The DC motor makes a loud arcing noise and shoots a band of sparks when stopping/reversing. Again, only at the highest RPM. It won't do it at 2000, just right at the end (2500).
"Doctor, it hurts when I do this!"...... "So don't DO that!"

:)

If it didn't already need a commutator clean-up, brushes and holders cleaned and re-seated, (or replaced, etc)?

It does now.

All in the archives.

Monarch price new brushes fairly. They no longer show as direct listings from Helwig, so Monarch MAY be having to have a larger batch run now and then to be inventoried. Legitimate reason for the rather modest premium they charge. Two sets may last you as long as you care.

See also the "Field Acceleration Relay" and cousins lore in archives. Major players in rapid speed change, braking, and reversing.

More was planned for the 10EE yesterday, but I had to trailer my worn out '65 GTO convertible home because the motor seized. :cryin::angry:

If it is the original V8? Surely you are already aware that was a designed-in 'feature'.

Bill
 
See also the "Field Acceleration Relay" and cousins lore in archives. Major players in rapid speed change, braking, and reversing.

I think you may have mispelled "anti-plugging relay". The field acceleration relay failure would lead to slow starting when set for a high speed, the AP relay is allowing the drive to reverse when the motor speed is too high and needs to be reset to something like 200-300 rpm.
 
I think you may have mispelled "anti-plugging relay". The field acceleration relay failure would lead to slow starting when set for a high speed, the AP relay is allowing the drive to reverse when the motor speed is too high and needs to be reset to something like 200-300 rpm.

"and cousins". They actually have to ALL work together at the expected activation levels. Some faux pas are just more immediately obvious than others.

FWIW, when run on a 4Q DC Drive, the large-frame 3 HP actually slows down rather smartly even if the field is left at the lowest 'weakened' level.

An MG hasn't the luxury of dynamically reversing 'adjustable portions' of the armature power as a 4Q drive can do. It needs the FA relay (or 'weakening OVER RIDE' relay) to assist.

Its function is to 'un-do' any weakening so as to put full power into the field so it can EITHER/ANY-OF accelerate to a set speed, respond to sudden load, or aid slowing-down faster so as to more rapidly get INTO the zone where the AP relay has been told it is safe to go BFBI and hard-reverse the armature power without harm.

Side note, but as I am already rebuilding both of mine, I cannot really recommend 'field-reversing' at full-gallop armature voltage AND full-power field. The 10EE does NOT do this, but 'elsewhere' in DC-Motor-land, it is an old, old trick so as to work with lower currents than armature-reversing wants.

Trialed on a 10EE, it proves to be very harsh at full-speed. The Reliance motor stands it. For a while, anyway. Just not cheaply.

:)

Similar stress as to what is being reported here, just writ far larger and brighter.

Whether due to FA, AP, a combination - and/or/also with the contribution of worn cams/microswitches in the HS Motor Switch... 'just arrived at my shop' is a Very Good Time for the OP to check ALL the relays and contactors. Motor switch functionality, wire, terminals, and braking resistor integrity as well.

Otherwise one gets too busy making chips and dasn't come back to ANY of that until it sets a foot wrong - right in the middle of a rush project.

Lybarger's Corollary.

Bill
 
I think you may have mispelled "anti-plugging relay". The field acceleration relay failure would lead to slow starting when set for a high speed, the AP relay is allowing the drive to reverse when the motor speed is too high and needs to be reset to something like 200-300 rpm.

IF .. it works perfectly so long as you initiate the change at 2000 RPM or below..

AND it only fails to work as expected when you initiate ABOVE 2000 RPM - Specifically @ 2500 RPM..

The FA and AP relays probably ARE doing what they were meant to do.

The most recently-seen culprit in 'lab tests' was that ONE of the 4 brushes (two pair of two), was bouncing up in its holder at high RPM due to being worn so very short the 'tamper' couldn't keep it in contact against commutator nastiness, then binding a bit, and releasing again - akin to a sticky valve on a motorcar.

That caused rapid and unpredictable interruption / restoral of current flow in one of the two interleaved sets of Armature windings, 'switching' spikes coupled to its mate and the Field. Intense blue-green-white 'light show' to match.

And of course 'confusion' to the FA relay. AP relay probably still able to hide, hull-down, as it looks for much lower voltage.

Mind - that motor was sitting out of the lathe on a test carriage, so it was easy to see things.
And there were no relays. Solid-State Drive deliberately being run waaaay past its normal settings. I did say 'lab test'.

FWIW, 'some' large-frame 690-2000 RPM nameplated motors will run all day at 3,000 RPM, don't start to shed bits of wood and stuff until 3600 RPM.

Higher-RPM 10EE used different motors, pulley ratios, or both, as the older large-frame 3 HP will NOT stand 4,000 RPM.

Don't try any of this at home. Only ONE Idjut needs to test that to find it out, and I am he.

Dunno if that was in archives or not, but now it is.

:)

Bill
 
Thanks for the help. I was just digging the archives trying to understand the "anti-plugging" and how that works. I do need to look closer at the brushes, etc., on the big DC motor.

The GTO motor (thankfully) wasn't the original, rather a '67 400. It was allowed to overheat and seized up TIGHT. After freeing it up, it now runs with a nice, consistent rod knock:bawling:. I will have to tear it apart and see how bad the damage is, then decide on having machine work done or finding a running '65-'70 Bonneville, etc., to scrounge the motor out of.
 
How offensive! :cryin::wrong::cryin:

Uhhh.. first seen in one period of under 24 hours where the owner, his brother, and I tore down his Pontiac V8, rebuilt it, put it back on the road, had it seize within the hour, then repeated the bottom-end part of the job before daylight.

"Offensive" was working through the night.

To this day, I have a soft spot in my EYE for the looks of the '64 and '65 GTO (but NOT '66 and later ones).

Just never a soft-ENOUGH spot in the REST of my head to OWN one.

Good luck with it. More to them than looks.

:)

Bill
 
If three guys rebuilt the motor overnight, and the bottom end failed within a hour. .... I'd say Beer, Stupidity, Fatigue were more likely the cause, than a bad design in Lansing MI
 
If three guys rebuilt the motor overnight, and the bottom end failed within a hour. .... I'd say Beer, Stupidity, Fatigue were more likely the cause, than a bad design in Lansing MI

*sigh* yeah. Beer was not in the budget in the same month that parts had to be purchased, but Paul leaving the G.D. oil pump pickup tube on the bench was no help.

However ..the reason it needed rebuilt the FIRST time was that Pontiac had used a narrow, larger diameter main bearing than their cousins at Chevrolet. They needed closer spacings to squeeze larger bores in so as to get greater CID out of a too-small block for the goal.

That, BTW, is a well-documented contributor to spun bearing shells that did NOT plague the Chevie design.

Also the reason that the vehicle was peddled soon after, and NO ONE in our lot ever ran a Pontiac again. Chevies mostly. Olds, Buick, even a few Cadillacs. FOMOCO or MOPAR later, but Chevie/GMC never left the stage, and Pontiac did not come back onto it for prodifying. 'Appliance' drivers bought Pontiacs out our way. Somebody's Mom's car.

As to Lansing? Just hark back to the famous quote from Semon "Bunkie" Knudsen as he took over Pontiac division.

When asked what changes he expected to make soonest for the upcoming model year's Pontiac, he said, and on the record, if I remember the words correctly:

We are going to add four hooks, one at each corner of the chassis, and stretch a canvas hammock underneath to catch all the parts that fall off!

I was quite fond of my GMC 'A' body 1989 Pontiac 6000 LE 2.8L V6.

But it was from a much newer era.

Bill
 
It's officially time to read this again: The Old Car: Pontiac is Dead...Who cares, Right?

(Shameless plug)

'64 and '65 are my favorite years. I just wish those A-bodies felt as solid as the full size cars.

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Oh, if only the GTO really looked that nice up close... Isn't it amazing how pictures can create an illusion?
Fair share of rust, wrong trans, wrong (and now dead!) motor, almost no options other than 4 speed, console and convertible top.
 
The GTO is home now, going into hibernation until I pull the motor and decide on what direction to take.

I really want to stay focused on the 10EE attention wise and budget wise. So I'm trying hard to just be patient concerning the GTslOw.
 








 
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