Honest hon, the 10EE just followed me home - Page 10
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  1. #181
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    That is the motor that came with his 10EE. His machine was built in 1990

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    Quote Originally Posted by vettebob View Post
    That is the motor that came with his 10EE. His machine was built in 1990
    Using an Emerson type E vs a Reliance Type T would have saved Monarch Machine Tool around ten thousand US$ per 10EE at the time. Over $19,000 in today's coin.

    The earlier switch to Louis-Allis and GE KinaMatic hadn't saved as much.

    Both of those, BTW were reasonably decent motors, just not quite twelve thousand 1990 dollars worth of Reliance RPM III decent.

    We need to find him a proper 10EE Dee Cee motor.

    Otherwise, he'd be almost as well-off with a Marathon Black Max 6-pole 7.5 HP, and a good grade of VFD. OEM reduction gear box in working order pretty much essential for those. Not so much with DC motor if on the right sort of powering.

  3. #183
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    You guys are going to make him start ........

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    Quote Originally Posted by Monarchist View Post
    That is going to be sad, sad, sad unless all your work is to be done at 'medium', not even high, RPM with carbides, cermets, and CBN.

    - Wrong type of DC motor, for starters. Type E are not built for the wide variable-speed RPM powerband a "Type T" (TR, TX) is designed and wound for.

    - Not enough poles plus interpoles, either.

    -- The 'base' RPM on the MG-era 'large frame' 3 HP motor is 690, full-load RPM. At that and below it is holding 23 lb ft of torque.

    -- The later 5 HP Reliance, Louis-Allis, and GE KinaMatic are all also either "Type T' or "Special Wound". Their base RPM is around 1150 to 1750, and they push 15 lb/ft or so of torque. These are either shunt wound with compounding winding or compensated-shunt wound.

    Your 'Type E' was meant for a different class of service. Note the very high base RPM of 2150, and the relatively lower max, or 'do not exceed' RPM of only 3500 RPM.

    The 'proper' motors for the 10EE not only have lower base RPM's, they have HIGHER max - 2400 RPM for even the 690 base 3 HP, typically 4500 or 5500 RPM for the 5 HP ones.

    Finally - this beast wants 28 FLA? Why? A 'proper' 10EE Type T need only 18, 19, or 20 FLA in the 5 HP models, 12 A for the 3 HP ones.

    We need to find you a proper motor....
    Monarchist,

    It could well be 18 FLA. The picture is really hard to make out. Thats why I put a question mark next to it. I'll ask Steve if he can confirm it. I find it odd that Monarch would have put an inappropriate type of motor in. The placard is on the end of the casting, not on the motor. I guess it could have been added later, but it looks original.

    Looks like I have a lot to learn about DC motors.

    Out of curiosity, how much damage is a 'proper' DC motor going to do to the ole pocketbook?

    Andy

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    Quote Originally Posted by swatkins View Post
    You guys are going to make him start ........
    They are trying awfully hard

  6. #186
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    Quote Originally Posted by ariyama View Post
    Monarchist,

    It could well be 18 FLA. The picture is really hard to make out. Thats why I put a question mark next to it. I'll ask Steve if he can confirm it. I find it odd that Monarch would have put an inappropriate type of motor in. The placard is on the end of the casting, not on the motor. I guess it could have been added later, but it looks original.

    Looks like I have a lot to learn about DC motors.

    Out of curiosity, how much damage is a 'proper' DC motor going to do to the ole pocketbook?

    Andy
    Where do I need to look?

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    Andy it is 18 amps....

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    Quote Originally Posted by swatkins View Post
    Andy it is 18 amps....
    Ok, thanks.

  9. #189
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    I'm reading the manual "theory of operations" on the original motor controller. Trying to glean any hints about how it was set up as manufactured. It mentions a base speed of 1333 at the spindle. I think the motor gear box is straight through unless in back gear, and the pulleys on the motor and spindle are the same size. The would indicate a different motor base speed,I think.

    Regarding the base speed, it says:

    "The base speed is the speed of the motor when the armature voltage, armature current, and field current are at rated values."

    Elsewhere it say the armature voltage is 220v. Thats a little less than the 240v name plate.

    Mystery upon mystery.

    Andy

  10. #190
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    IF the controller was changed to a less expensive controller at one point would not replacing the factory controler be the simplest and least costly option to make the machine right again?

  11. #191
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    Quote Originally Posted by ariyama View Post
    I'm reading the manual "theory of operations" on the original motor controller. Trying to glean any hints about how it was set up as manufactured. It mentions a base speed of 1333 at the spindle. I think the motor gear box is straight through unless in back gear, and the pulleys on the motor and spindle are the same size. The would indicate a different motor base speed,I think.

    Regarding the base speed, it says:

    "The base speed is the speed of the motor when the armature voltage, armature current, and field current are at rated values."

    Elsewhere it say the armature voltage is 220v. Thats a little less than the 240v name plate.

    Mystery upon mystery.

    Andy
    18 FLA @ 220 VDC is more realistic for 5 HP. 'base' RPM is indeed at the nameplate max for Voltage and current, both Armature and Field, but... the motor will only DRAW those currents at full rated HP/Torque loads, so.. easy for the maker to check - they have dynomometers.

    Actually, they can even 'back into' the FLA Amperage number, hence figures such an "18.1" FLA instead of something like exactly 18 A and fudging to "4.9X HP".

    Restoring of controllers.... 'back in the day' there were a dozen companies making 3-Phase only and 1-Phase-only SCR motor controllers.

    SOME can still be found with a deep-dive internet search, but usually only as third-party repair-houses willing to quote repairs at $1,500 - $1,700 and upwards. Do that, much cash is gone, and one would still have an over-age-in-service "orphan" of a drive with only a few new parts rev-engineer substituted into it for the band-aid patch.

    Not only have the drive MAKERS gone tits-up or moved on to other work, key components have gone sore obsolete, replaced with newer technology, not just different SKU numbers.

    That newer technology in - for example, what I choose to call "pass" elements, because they may or may not still be the original dumb-as-rocks SCR - wants different triggering and decision logic than older tech used.

    When I started the journey of 're discovering' what had been lost, I had planned to just build one of my own switcher-front-end, massively analog "linear" output side designs. Seriously 'sweet' DC. Also pretty good as thousand-Watt room-heaters.

    Fools' errand once I discovered that Eurotherm-SSD, now Parker-SSD, had never ceased making good higher voltage capable DC Drives as their predominantly European and other NON-US market demanded.

    IF you have utility-mains grade 3-Phase, it is easier yet. Five or more major makers still offer DC Drives for that, most 10HP rated and above. Where 'above' runs to 9,000 HP to 14,000 HP as standard items, though I assure you those are not built 'on speculation' for dealer 'shelf stock'.

    Now.. where to find a 'proper' Type T motor?

    - Used 3 HP Reliance 'large frame' as supplied in the MG 10EE are good. "Three HP" is a white lie. Monarch Reliance pushed them to 4 HP or so. Do the math where 260 to 270 VDC was made available rather than just the nameplate 230 VDC.

    They are masterful at delivering smooooooth torque. Nothing short of a full 'servo' motor can touch that.

    Lots of them were pulled by folks who went to VFD. If they have no Monarch gearbox, they are at least set up to mate with one found separately. The gearbox is actually far harder to find than the motor, as most VFD conversions migrated it to the AC motor.

    Next up is the first 'downgrade' forced on Monarch Machine Tool by economics when new Reliance Type T motors started costing half or more the price of a decent suburban home.

    "5 HP" doesn't tell the whole story. The rating was at nearly double the older motor's 690 RPM 'base', so the torque AT the new base is lower. Do the math. Calculator around somewhere online.

    Worse, the torque never gets any higher. These motors NEED that gearbox just as much as a VFD'ed motor does.

    You won't easily find a 5 HP Reliance Type T with the mount for the 10EE gearbox. I do have a 3 HP 'small frame' Reliance. Good motor. Better at mid to high RPM than the older 3HP - less Field Weakening needed.

    No match for its large-frame ancestor, 1,000 RPM downward.

    What is out there and still reasonably desirable are GE KinaMatic and Louis-Allis 5 HP.

    Third choice, one has to FAB a gearbox mount, ELSE do without.

    Here is where an answer to the question "how will you USE your 10EE?" enters.

    IF 60 RPM - one revolution per SECOND, lest we forget, is low and slow enough, THEN a 5 HP to 7.5 HP Reliance RPM III Type T, TR, or TX 'blower duty' DC motor can be run off a 514C-32 to deliver that, no gearbox. Bad news is you will have to mount it OUTSIDE the 10EE. It won't fit indoors with a 1-P blower motor and filter on it.

    Wants about $300 with-freight worth of Hammond 25 mH choke O/E as ripple filter, higher cost yet for a Lenze or similar "swinging" choke. Won't be as smooth even-so as the old 3 HP 'large frame', same filter. It will, however, out-perform the low-end of a naked, no-gearbox, same HP-rated VFD'ed motor struggling at too-low Hz.

    Once down to 20 Hz a 3-Phase motor may as well be a 60 Hz single-phase. Not among our 'dearly beloved' for smooth, those.

    IF RPM's at 2,000 to 6,000 are your meat, THEN a 3-Phase motor and VFD is cheap and righteous. Every such conversion requires custom mechanical work plus programming a VFD.

    Can't be too hard or there would not be so many of them written-up one at a time on PM.
    Doesn't always take a whole year, either.

    In-between, so long as the 3-P + VFD has 5 HP vs the DC's 3 HP, or 7.5 HP to the DC's 5 HP, it doesn't really much matter.

    "Somebody out there" will have a large frame 3 HP or small-frame 5 HP DC motor pulled for VFD conversion or 10EE part-out.

    Freight can be a right bitch unless one is able to enjoy a sightseeing tour as byproduct of a go-fetch excursion.

  12. #192
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    Monarchist,

    Thanks for the long explanation. That fills in several gaps in my knowledge. At this point I think my path is:

    Fix Spindle nose taper and internal taper.

    Grind bed.

    Scrape as needed - doing some of that now with the compound

    Reassemble and use for awhile.

    Find new controller. Might use that with old motor as interim step.

    Replace motor. Presumably my motor will have some value, offsetting some of the cost of the replacement.

    Move electronics inside lathe.

    I'm sure there will be other things along the way, but those are the major steps. Not sure if I will do a full tear down and painting yet.

    I think this is going to be one of those things where it is good that I didn't fully realize the effort beforehand, else I would have never started Better get on with it.

    Thanks,

    Andy

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    Quote Originally Posted by ariyama View Post
    I think this is going to be one of those things where it is good that I didn't fully realize the effort beforehand, else I would have never started Better get on with it.
    Could have been worse.

    You could have also spent about $6,000 and several years, part time researching and bench-testing only to prove that everything needed to migrate DC power to Parker-SSD drives was right there in their own manuals - plus a few "white papers" from Reliance Electric & Engineer, Yaskawa/Magnetek, et al.

    Worse - it had all BEEN there for decades before you even started to 're discover' it.

    "Lost in plain view", as it were whilst folks who made half-vast runs at it whined it did not work.

    All they ever needed to do to 'make it right' was to go back and bring their own wilful, over-rationalized, false-economy short cuts up to where they should have been from the outset. "By the book". And "the book" was even free.

    Meanwhile.. the Monarch-on-PM community had also contributed enough real-world how-to that a 10EE can be restored to ANY OEM drive, Sundstrand included, through all other OEM DC Drives, plus many examples of conversion to AC + VFD and rather more even of servo + servo controller than just Macona's one (five or so?).

    Plenty of flexibility on that "spin the spindle" part, after all.

    Grinding beds, raising saddles back up, scraping-in all the rest?

    Well.. at least anyone who does that to the massive ways of a 10EE or one of its six or so worthy - but SCARCER YET - counterparts does not then also have the tears of frustration at trying to HOLD that goodness on the wimpy-corpus spaghetti-bed of a lesser lathe that CANNOT appreciate the TLC and hold it dear for fifty or so trouble-free years.

    Restoring a 10EE is costlier even than sex, slower as well than even the best of sex - or even just eating a fresh, ripe Mango or Watermelon, but wot the hey... similar experience at the end of the exercise, cheap OR costly.

    That was messy!

    But WORTH it!



  14. #194
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    Here is the motor speed and hp chart from the manual:

    2017-03-23-11.23.02-rotated.jpg

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    Here is the motor speed and hp chart from the manual:

    2017-03-23-11.23.02-rotated.jpg

  16. #196
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    Quote Originally Posted by ariyama View Post
    Here is the motor speed and hp chart from the manual:

    2017-03-23-11.23.02-rotated.jpg
    Under 5% of max power 'down low' may look like bad news - and for THIS motor, it actually IS

    Even so, they have short-changed themselves to show only HP, not both HP being demanded and torque 'available'.

    The proper curve for a DC motor, base and below shows the HP @ RPM, yes.

    It should, however, also show the 'reserve torque' that is on-call, if the device controlling it is of the sort that can actually MAKE such a call.

    The feedback mechanism in a Ward-Leonard MG unit is limited to response to CEMF in the pure shunt-wound final-drive motor, plus a bit of extra compensation in the 'exciter' DC generator. Actually does a damned fine job for its simplicity.

    WiaD and Modular DC drives progressed to compensation in the final-drive motor itself, plus hollow-state tubes in addition to the big fire-bottle Argon Thyristors. Had to compensate for the removal of the exciter with a bit of amplification.

    Enter same motors on a modern Solid State Drive such as the SSD series that utilize 'operational amplifiers' for feedback sensing and control.

    Load increases below 'base' RPM, they can turn-up the entire max voltage ration, drive the torque component to the max of that full reserve, and "Real Soon, Now".

    Base and below, a 4Q 512C will hold that RPM so steady, you wont even know it had to go there without the load-meter it provides terminals to implement.

    Unless one skipped the ripple filter. In which case the motor growls atcha - light load OR heavy.

    As one might guess, if it is acoustically noisy, it is TRYING to print that same vibration onto the work.

    25 mH @ 20A choke in series. SE grins happen, 'coz no 'factory' DC Drive could go down there, kick ass and take names quite as smoothly or well.



    BTW .. Do Not.. EVER.. ass u me that a take-no-prisoners shunt-wound DC motor charting 3% of its 5 HP @ one rev every two seconds is something you can reach out and stop with a handgrip.

    Meat pretzels can be made that way if you can't get loose or reach an E-Stop.
    Seriously 'career limiting' way to go off the clock.


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