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  1. #161
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    Quote Originally Posted by rke[pler View Post
    The information I have found indicates that it was a very fine aluminum oxide powder. I expect that you could get the same with glass bead, maybe.
    That sounds right. The inch/metric separator ring does have an 'aluminum' sheen to it.

    Andy

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    What does a part blasted with soda powder look like after the blasting?

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    Quote Originally Posted by swatkins View Post
    What does a part blasted with soda powder look like after the blasting?
    Clean, usually.

  4. #164
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    Andy You can send them to me I have some 120 mesh aluminum oxide in my bead blaster right now it puts a real nice matte finish on steel. I sent out your taper attachment clamp and rod today. Bob

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    Quote Originally Posted by vettebob View Post
    Andy You can send them to me I have some 120 mesh aluminum oxide in my bead blaster right now it puts a real nice matte finish on steel. I sent out your taper attachment clamp and rod today. Bob
    Thanks Bob. I may send them your way, though I really do want to get my blaster going. I purpose built a shed for the compressor and trash cans. Two years ago. Hooking that up will be part the garage electrical upgrade + RPC. Parts start arriving Monday.

    Andy

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    Quote Originally Posted by vettebob View Post
    Andy You can send them to me I have some 120 mesh aluminum oxide in my bead blaster right now it puts a real nice matte finish on steel. I sent out your taper attachment clamp and rod today. Bob
    Your work of art arrived the other day. Sorry for not replying, I've been crazy busy.

    2017-03-08-01.08.57.jpg

    Can't wait to try it out. Its going to be awhile though

    Andy

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    Quote Originally Posted by 220swift View Post
    Andy nylon I/M dial gear.
    If you call Monarch, be sitting down, I think they quoted me $200 dollars if I remember right, I kind a got light headed.

    Good news, send me your address and I'll send you one. I know a young man that's going to machinist school and he made me a few. The school never had the right cutter so he printed them on a 3D printer.

    I haven't tried them yet to see if they will work. Make sure to keep the original gear as I didn't get mine back. Don't wait to long to send your address as this is my daughter' computer and she want it back.

    Hal
    Hal,

    I received the gear. Thanks! I tried it out tonight. Its a bit of a tight fit on the pin, but it fits and rotates. Its just slightly smaller outside diameter than the original. It measured pretty consistently 0.527 all the way around, while the original was about 0.540. Though I can turn the dials, it binds a bit at one spot in the gear. I'm guessing that the inside and outside are not quite concentric. I'll take a closer look tomorrow with it on a gauge pin in some V-blocks and see what I can see. It was binding a little with the original gear, but I thought that was because the teeth were chewed up. There may be some other issue with my dials. I'm too bleary-eyed to check it tonight

    The school here has a 3D printer that prints with nylon. I'm not sure if it is high enough resolution or not. The teeth are pretty fine. If you can get the model from the student, I could try printing one.

    Here are the old and new:

    monarch-dial-gear.jpg

    Thanks for your help,

    Andy

  8. #168
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    Bob and I took a closer look at my spindle today. We removed that tape that was on the nose taper and checked it for runout. Two tenths. The front face of the spindle nose was dead on. Next we check the axial movement. About 2 tenths. Radially we didn't get any movement at all. Finally, we checked the internal taper. That is whacked. Its about 1.3 thou. Back to the spindle in a sec.

    We looked at the saddle and found very little wear. That does not make sense, since the ways have areas with 7 thou wear. If the hardened ways wor that much, the softer saddle should be much worse. Putting that together with the spindle internal runout, we think that it may have suffered a crash at some point, and the saddle replaced.

    The reason the tape was on the nose taper is that it is about 7 thou undersize, when compared to Steve's lathe. Maybe the crash messed up the spindle and it was turned true on the lathe. For some reason internal taper was not corrected. My conclusion thus far is the spindle is not that bad. The nose face needs to be turned back bit to that the tape engages in the chuck's taper. I think its a 1:8 ratio for the 7 degrees, 7 minute, 30 second angle. Per side I need 3.5 thou, so 8 * 3.5 = 28 thou of the face should make the taper mesh with the chuck taper.

    We fired it up for the first time. Forward and reverse work ok, but the max speed is about 1500. Looking at the motor control board, its is not the original board. Not even close. It it a KB Electronics KBRG controller. We'll look at this in greater detail tomorrow. The motor is listed at 240V, but the controller only put out 180v according to the manual.

    Andy

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    Quote Originally Posted by ariyama View Post
    It it a KB Electronics KBRG controller. We'll look at this in greater detail tomorrow. The motor is listed at 240V, but the controller only put out 180v according to the manual.

    Andy
    KBRG 255 or KBRG 240D. 4Q hopefully, and yes, nominal 230 VAC in, max 250, only 180 VDC out.

    Bought my first KBRG 255 with the same idea in mind, then bought a 5 HP 180 VDC RPM III Type TR motor of the voltage the KB are actually meant to work with.

    Then read, then proved, the OEM 'large frame' Reliance 3 HP was far the better fit to the need as a motor. More torque. Smoother winding layout.

    You will find your 1500 RPM max is also gutless, and short on ability to regulate under load.
    The 180 VDC max to the armature doesn't even get the motor up to 'base' speed. The field has to be weakened way too early.

    If the field is being supplied off the independent FWB the KBRG provides for field, it is not getting a smooth 115 VDC, either. Unfiltered 120 Hz sine-pulsed DC @ 90 V, so the rig is noisy and short on torque even below base RPM.

    Net result, usability wise, since a 10EE has no countershaft or belted ratios, is very similar to a 3/4 HP South Bend 10K with heavier castings, more motor noise, greater spindle vibration.

    The good news is that is is easy to correct, labour-wise, just not 'free', parts-wise.
    OTOH, not terribly expensive, either.

    Best to get your 'mechanicals' sorted first.

    Shout when you are ready for a hand with a Bill of Materials for the two Eurotherm/Parker-SSD drives that DO match the motor, [1]their boost transformer(s) [2], and the ripple-filter choke [3] that single-phase-fed SCR drives need to run smooth across their designated range without damaging old motors not meant for spikes off SCR drives.

    Example over here:

    Parker/Eurotherm 514C/507 4Q SSD DC Retrofit into 1961 10EE Modular

    The 514C-16 16A drive is actually peppier with the 12 A 3 HP motor.
    Any 18-19A 5 HP 10EE should really have the SSD 514C-32 32A drive.

    ================

    [1] Armature supply - Parker-SSD 514C-16 or -32, Field supply and control, SSD 506, 507, or 508

    [2] Transformer minimum boost 300 VAC, max 350 VAC, full isolation, AND NOT "autotransfomer" AKA buck/boost alone. Minimum 5 kVA, better 6 to 7 kVA. easiest made up from 2 or 3 stock units, 240 VAC primaries in parallel, secondaries in series.

    [3] Lenze, Siemens, et al 'swinging' choke 10-40 mH, ELSE Hammond et al 25 mH fixed choke for the SSD 514C Armature supply. Coilcraft O/E for the SSD 50(X) field supply.

    CAVEAT: Those values are MILLI Henry, not MICRO Henry. Big heavy f*****s, IOW.

    Or you can do without ripple-filter chokes and just buy spare MOTORS periodically.

    The chokes are less nuisance, as you only do them ONCE.

    Heavy chokes also very usefully extend the direct-drive RPM well down from even an OEM MG before gearbox reduction is required.
    Last edited by Monarchist; 03-19-2017 at 07:48 AM.

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  11. #170
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    Quote Originally Posted by Monarchist View Post
    KBRG 255 or KBRG 240D. 4Q hopefully, and yes, nominal 230 VAC in, max 250, only 180 VDC out.

    Bought my first KBRG 255 with the same idea in mind, then bought a 5 HP 180 VDC RPM III Type TR motor of the voltage the KB are actually meant to work with.

    Then read, then proved, the OEM 'large frame' Reliance 3 HP was far the better fit to the need as a motor. More torque. Smoother winding layout.

    You will find your 1500 RPM max is also gutless, and short on ability to regulate under load.
    The 180 VDC max to the armature doesn't even get the motor up to 'base' speed. The field has to be weakened way too early.

    If the field is being supplied off the independent FWB the KBRG provides for field, it is not getting a smooth 115 VDC, either. Unfiltered 120 Hz sine-pulsed DC @ 90 V, so the rig is noisy and short on torque even below base RPM.

    Net result, usability wise, since a 10EE has no countershaft or belted ratios, is very similar to a 3/4 HP South Bend 10K with heavier castings, more motor noise, greater spindle vibration.

    The good news is that is is easy to correct, labour-wise, just not 'free', parts-wise.
    OTOH, not terribly expensive, either.

    Best to get your 'mechanicals' sorted first.

    Shout when you are ready for a hand with a Bill of Materials for the two Eurotherm/Parker-SSD drives that DO match the motor, [1]their boost transformer(s) [2], and the ripple-filter choke [3] that single-phase-fed SCR drives need to run smooth across their designated range without damaging old motors not meant for spikes off SCR drives.

    Example over here:

    Parker/Eurotherm 514C/507 4Q SSD DC Retrofit into 1961 10EE Modular

    The 514C-16 16A drive is actually peppier with the 12 A 3 HP motor.
    Any 18-19A 5 HP 10EE should really have the SSD 514C-32 32A drive.

    ================

    [1] Armature supply - Parker-SSD 514C-16 or -32, Field supply and control, SSD 506, 507, or 508

    [2] Transformer minimum boost 300 VAC, max 350 VAC, full isolation, AND NOT "autotransfomer" AKA buck/boost alone. Minimum 5 kVA, better 6 to 7 kVA. easiest made up from 2 or 3 stock units, 240 VAC primaries in parallel, secondaries in series.

    [3] Lenze, Siemens, et al 'swinging' choke 10-40 mH, ELSE Hammond et al 25 mH fixed choke for the SSD 514C Armature supply. Coilcraft O/E for the SSD 50(X) field supply.

    CAVEAT: Those values are MILLI Henry, not MICRO Henry. Big heavy f*****s, IOW.

    Or you can do without ripple-filter chokes and just buy spare MOTORS periodically.

    The chokes are less nuisance, as you only do them ONCE.

    Heavy chokes also very usefully extend the direct-drive RPM well down from even an OEM MG before gearbox reduction is required.
    Monarchist,

    The controller is a KBRG 225 http://www.kbelectronics.com/manuals...40D_manual.pdf

    I was reading the Parker thread the night before last. Ultimately I will likely install that or a similar controller. First I need to get my spindle sorted out, both the internal taper and the nose taper. I think its feasible to do both in place. Still contemplating that.

    It would be nice to relocate all the electronics into into internal cavities in the machine and get rid of the large cabinet. Cooling airflow would be a concern. Thats down the road a bit. I will keep my eye out for the Parker-SSD 514C-32 and one of the 507,7 or 8. In going to all effort to restore the machine, it makes sense to me to put in the larger controller.

    Thanks, Andy

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    Quote Originally Posted by ariyama View Post
    Monarchist,

    The controller is a KBRG 225
    Oy! Too small as well as too low voltage. Reliance nameplate may say 3 HP, but that's a rather "lossy" (73% or so 'efficient') Type-T motor, hence best treated as if it were a 5 HP. ISTR the MG is 4.5 HP or so capable, So is the motor, given feed off an SSD set up for 270 VDC or so.

    The KBRG-255 is KB's stronger one, but still only 180 VDC, so best used with a different motor. My 5 HP 180 VDC Reliance RPM III Type TR is headed for use on a mill, f'rinstance.

    It would be nice to relocate all the electronics into into internal cavities in the machine and get rid of the large cabinet. Cooling airflow would be a concern.
    Quite easy, that. A re-purposed shiney-wood mini-scaffold, wheels robbed off casters, WiAD style 'drawer' ensues from either a MG or WiaD base casting. Mark's Modular base casting has a vertical bulkhead down its long-axis, no easy way to mount a pull-out drawer. OTOH, it was expected to house compartmentalized electronics rather than motor-generator from the outset, so is better served as he has done it.

    Heat isn't much of an issue, either way.

    His was prepared to expect that, as hollow-state thyristors run far hotter than dirty-beach sand ones do. No filament heaters in Silicon SCR's.

    The old MG shed around 2 or 3 kW as waste - similar to a pair of average electric space heaters.

    The new SSD's combined shed only about as much as a 60 W lamp when hard at work, and around 5 to 7 Watts, idle. Power goes into the motor. Braking goes back to the grid, so there is no longer heat from braking resistors next to the motor, either.

    Transformers and chokes shed some heat, too, but even so, I'm looking to close up the azures in the floor pan of the former MG doghouse to discourage rodents and insects taking up winter residence. It still has openings, backside where the coolant pump lived before remoted to a wheelie. Also has one real, one dummy screened vent in the rear hatch, and opens into the 'tank', HS-end. More floor azures there, plus the vents under the trim strips, rear lower cover.

    I would NOT place electronics of any kind in with the motor where the DC panel used to live. Too much in the way of chips, oil, coolant have left evidence in one 10EE after another that they can certainly find their way in there.

    Not to forget, the motor does still shed a lot of heat.

    I MAY fab-up a TS-end replacement hatch with louvered exterior to shed chips, furnace-filter then fan mounted to its inner side. A low-noise 'backward curved' impeller blade, and it will make very little noise.

    That would blow air - slowly, but fast enough - down the tunnel and out the 'tank' or engine-room where the final-drive motor lives. Lowers the risk of 'hot spots', and that's all the equipment would need.

    I'll have more than one remote temp sensor on it as it goes back together. They are already here and paid for, and I still expect to make more tests than I do chips.


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    Monarchist His machine was originally a wiad machine type He has the entire wiad compartment which is empty as well as the area where the tube drawer was in the back . He has 2 480/240 to 240/120 transformers which may work well depending on kva for a boost setup. Andy did you happen to write down your motor data plate info. I remember seeing 240 for the armature and 120/240 volts for the field. I don't remember the amps Your machine may be a 5hp model you may want to check the data plate for hp and max amps for both the armature and field. The parker Eurotherm 950+ regenerative controller may be ideal as it will take 240 ac and boost output by 1.15 providing full armature voltage for the dc motor With your field being capable of 240 the amperage for the field will be half that if it is wired that way. Bob

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    Quote Originally Posted by vettebob View Post
    Monarchist His machine was originally a wiad machine type He has the entire wiad compartment which is empty as well as the area where the tube drawer was in the back . He has 2 480/240 to 240/120 transformers which may work well depending on kva for a boost setup. Andy did you happen to write down your motor data plate info. I remember seeing 240 for the armature and 120/240 volts for the field. I don't remember the amps Your machine may be a 5hp model you may want to check the data plate for hp and max amps for both the armature and field. The parker Eurotherm 950+ regenerative controller may be ideal as it will take 240 ac and boost output by 1.15 providing full armature voltage for the dc motor With your field being capable of 240 the amperage for the field will be half that if it is wired that way. Bob
    Bob, If we are speaking Dee Cee, not AC, I think you mean SSD 590?
    It came in both Analog (obsolete) & Digital (current item) versions.

    Predecessor to the 512/514 line was the 540 series. Filled a gap @ 20 A vs the 8, 16, or 32 A of the 512/514.

    Both 590 variants are 3-Phase ONLY. No way around that with SCR-class drives - pass-elements sit directly on the leg, no caps, no conversion, just controlled switching.

    WiaD has the space for 'whatever'. More than an MG AFAIK.

    I need to get dimensions on the cavity sizes in the Sundstrand.

    There's a SMALL FRAME 3 HP motor here as well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by vettebob View Post
    Monarchist His machine was originally a wiad machine type He has the entire wiad compartment which is empty as well as the area where the tube drawer was in the back . He has 2 480/240 to 240/120 transformers which may work well depending on kva for a boost setup. Andy did you happen to write down your motor data plate info. I remember seeing 240 for the armature and 120/240 volts for the field. I don't remember the amps Your machine may be a 5hp model you may want to check the data plate for hp and max amps for both the armature and field. The parker Eurotherm 950+ regenerative controller may be ideal as it will take 240 ac and boost output by 1.15 providing full armature voltage for the dc motor With your field being capable of 240 the amperage for the field will be half that if it is wired that way. Bob
    Bob,

    Yes it was 240 and 120. I have a picture but the plate was dirty and hard to read. The next time I'm there I will snap another one. I'll check the specs on the transformers.

    Thanks again for all your help. I learned a lot over the weekend.

    Andy

    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-T337A using Tapatalk

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    Quote Originally Posted by ariyama View Post
    Bob,

    Yes it was 240 and 120. I have a picture but the plate was dirty and hard to read. The next time I'm there I will snap another one. I'll check the specs on the transformers.

    Thanks again for all your help. I learned a lot over the weekend.

    Andy

    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-T337A using Tapatalk
    IF... you have solid-state re-power in mind, first question is whether you have utility-mains 3 phase?

    I do not, but have a 10 HP Phase-Perfect.

    I've found I don't need to use it to power a 3-Phase-only DC Drive for the 10EE, since adding the big, fat post SCR ripple-filter inductor makes 1-P Parker-SSD 514C + 507 more than smooth enough.

    That DOES need boost, but if your on-hand transformers can do 240 <=> 240, at any decent kVA, adding another, primaries paralleled, secondaries series-ed to get you to 300- 350 VAC should be affordable, and you'll enjoy full-isolation to keep the lcal 'grid' side environment less noisy.

    Motor specs?

    Transformers specs?

    ..and we'll see what the better options might include.

    It should all fit on your WiaD drawer, so relatively low fuss.

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    Monarchist yes I meant 590 series. Long drive yesterday.

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    Quote Originally Posted by vettebob View Post
    Monarchist yes I meant 590 series. Long drive yesterday.
    Hear yah.

    Some of y'all still putting in 12, 16, 18+ hour days and driving many hundreds of miles post often enough we 'retired' chik'ns tend to forget you still have Day Jobs...

    Or at least more on your "Required Due Date" lists than is the case here..



    FWIW-not-much Department... I had considered R&D'ing and reporting on a 3-Phase-only DC Drive for the 10EE.

    I'd use the 10 HP Phase-Perfect and feed through near-as-dammit 1:1 240 Delta-in, 240 Wye-out transformer for even closer simulation to utility mains than a naked P-P.

    Not sure there is as much value in that as the single-phase drive work.

    The only 'hard' part is assuring a 10 HP-rated drive is comfortable not only with the 5 HP motors, but also with the 3 HP. I have both 'large frame' 3 HP and 'small frame' 3 HP Reliance here, thanks to the generosity of the gentleman from Upton, Mass.

    However, as most of the 3-Phase-only SCR drives I'd consider already HAVE a proper Field REGULATOR optional, or even built-in as standard, it should be - as the 514C's ultimately proved to be - largely a "RTFM.. more than once" exercise.

    No need of even arcane configuration, let alone 'inventing' anything.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Monarchist View Post
    IF... you have solid-state re-power in mind, first question is whether you have utility-mains 3 phase?

    I do not, but have a 10 HP Phase-Perfect.

    I've found I don't need to use it to power a 3-Phase-only DC Drive for the 10EE, since adding the big, fat post SCR ripple-filter inductor makes 1-P Parker-SSD 514C + 507 more than smooth enough.

    That DOES need boost, but if your on-hand transformers can do 240 <=> 240, at any decent kVA, adding another, primaries paralleled, secondaries series-ed to get you to 300- 350 VAC should be affordable, and you'll enjoy full-isolation to keep the lcal 'grid' side environment less noisy.

    Motor specs?

    Transformers specs?

    ..and we'll see what the better options might include.

    It should all fit on your WiaD drawer, so relatively low fuss.
    Bill,

    I have a 7.5hp RPC I am installing now. The transforms in the machine are 2 of these 3kva jobbers:

    Acme Electric Corporation - TA83223 - 3VA 6 Hz 24x48 Pri. V 12/24 Sec. V 1-Phase Control Transformer - Allied Electronics

    This is the motor name plate, but its hard to read.
    2017-01-30-08.32.05-rotated.jpg

    Specs as I can make them out by zooming in a photo editor:

    5HP, 2150/3500 RPM
    Armature 240V 28A (?)
    Field Volts 120/240
    Field Amps 2.0/0.4
    Power Supply Code: E
    Ambient Temp: 40C
    Type: E
    Insulation class F
    Winding: shunt
    Model: 2280620000
    Shunt Field Ohms: 39 Field data for 120V

    I tried searching the net for the model number, but didn't come up with anything. I may be reading it wrong.

    While I'm wiring things up, I'll add a single phase 220 box next to the 3 ph for the lathe, just in case I go the 514c-32/507 route. Why are two controllers required?

    Thanks,

    Andy

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    Quote Originally Posted by ariyama View Post
    ....Why are two controllers required?
    One for Armature. One for field.

    The 514C-XX is used for the Armature Supply & control - benefits greatly from being 4Q.
    As it does the reversing and the braking as well it is 'nice' to NOT need contactors or braking resistors.

    BOTH the 512/514 family AND the 50X family have an 'independent', EG: not controlled, not regulated, not even filtered Full Wave Bridge on their heat-sink/PCB that less demanding applications could use for Field Power.

    We don't use those because they are OF no use for a 10EE. Best they can do is provide 90 VDC instead of 115 // 120, with a rough waveform, without inherent adjustability, without limit setting capability, without fault detection, without alarms.. yadda, yadda..

    We use instead a 50X. These are complete smaller-motors 1Q DC Drives in their own right.

    By using their 'normally Armature' output for the 10EE motor's FIELD supply, we first insure that it gets the 'clean' 115 / 120 VDC power it needs. This by feeding it 240 VAC, then setting V-max to whatever the Field wants.

    A 1Q drive is good enough here, as we do not use the large, LARGE DC motors technique of "Field Reversing".

    Use of a full-fledged DC Drive such as a 50X gives us a whole menu of OTHER useful features.

    We get easy power control with small potentiometers that the 10EE needs for Field-Weakening, settings for min and max voltages, ability to set current limits, useful alarm I/O that can be integrated with the 514C and with E-stop, and more.

    Any of the 50X are actually a bit of overkill, but also cheap and common - 6 Amp-capable 507 perhaps most of all, used. I've found them anywhere from $25 to $80 each, haven't gotten a bad one yet out of...meahh five or six?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ariyama View Post
    Bill,

    I have a 7.5hp RPC I am installing now. The transforms in the machine are 2 of these 3kva jobbers:

    Acme Electric Corporation - TA83223 - 3VA 6 Hz 24x48 Pri. V 12/24 Sec. V 1-Phase Control Transformer - Allied Electronics

    This is the motor name plate, but its hard to read.
    2017-01-30-08.32.05-rotated.jpg

    Specs as I can make them out by zooming in a photo editor:

    5HP, 2150/3500 RPM
    Armature 240V 28A (?)
    Field Volts 120/240
    Field Amps 2.0/0.4
    Power Supply Code: E
    Ambient Temp: 40C
    Type: E
    Insulation class F
    Winding: shunt
    Model: 2280620000
    Shunt Field Ohms: 39 Field data for 120V
    That is going to be sad, sad, sad unless all your work is to be done at 'medium', not even high, RPM with carbides, cermets, and CBN.

    - Wrong type of DC motor, for starters. Type E are not built for the wide variable-speed RPM powerband a "Type T" (TR, TX) is designed and wound for.

    - Not enough poles plus interpoles, either.

    -- The 'base' RPM on the MG-era 'large frame' 3 HP motor is 690, full-load RPM. At that and below it is holding 23 lb ft of torque.

    -- The later 5 HP Reliance, Louis-Allis, and GE KinaMatic are all also either "Type T' or "Special Wound". Their base RPM is around 1150 to 1750, and they push 15 lb/ft or so of torque. These are either shunt wound with compounding winding or compensated-shunt wound.

    Your 'Type E' was meant for a different class of service. Note the very high base RPM of 2150, and the relatively lower max, or 'do not exceed' RPM of only 3500 RPM.

    The 'proper' motors for the 10EE not only have lower base RPM's, they have HIGHER max - 2400 RPM for even the 690 base 3 HP, typically 4500 or 5500 RPM for the 5 HP ones.

    Finally - this beast wants 28 FLA? Why? A 'proper' 10EE Type T need only 18, 19, or 20 FLA in the 5 HP models, 12 A for the 3 HP ones.

    We need to find you a proper motor....


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