Gentlemen,
I have to go pick up my new baby and my only choice to pick it up is a crane/hoist. Can someone give me some insight on how to pick this lathe up?
Unfortunately, more than a few times poorly implemented enough in field practice to bend 2 out of 3 of them longish roddy thingies. And a 'few inches off the floor' don't fit the average truck or trailer, either.
No foul, but the original writer for Monarch was simply more tech writer or theoretician than experienced rigger.
Drop the straps INSIDE the bed and the leadscrew et al can't be harmed even if there's a bit of slippage.
As there can be. Stuff tends to swing about when a crane is traversed. Precession ain't limited to gyroscopes.
Hence the supplemental straps, backup chain. And 'tag' lines with minders at a safe distance. Loads can tumble as well as swing when stuff goes pear-shaped, so close enough to push is close enough to be jellied.
Unfortunately, more than a few times poorly implemented enough in field practice to bend 2 out of 3 of them longish roddy thingies. And a 'few inches off the floor' don't fit the average truck or trailer, either.
But putting the straps outside the bed would give much better stability, so doing it correctly as pictured wouldn't bend anything and provide better control than a strap through the middle of the bed (even assuming that there's a good hooking spot there as the 10EE has).
No foul, but the original writer for Monarch was simply more tech writer or theoretician than experienced rigger.
I hardly think that the Monarch 60 Operator's Manual was/is the appropriate place for a rigging lesson.
Drop the straps INSIDE the bed and the leadscrew et al can't be harmed even if there's a bit of slippage.
In that position you're dangling 8000 pounds of lathe like a cast-iron chandelier.
I think they have it right in the image and description.
Astounding what they do not mention, lock the carriage,lock the tailstock. With Bill's plan even if those moved the machine would still be stable.
'Considerably less at risk' might be more accurate. They do indeed need locked and/or blocked and bound in place. But during the lift phase, it is the snubbing with supplementary straps that insures that whilst the main lift is near-as-dammit on-CG, any tendency to tilt about either axis is already accounted for - whatever the cause.
That bit is not much help for a rough ride AFTER it is loaded and straps removed. Think long truck, rail, sea, or combined voyage where the entire machine can - and will - be bounced clear of the deck if not restrained. Gravity is reliable and impressive. But it is mass times velocity squared that is the real Mike Foxtrot. One cannot, and should not, rely exclusively on the machinery's 'service' locking mechanism to long resist such stresses. Stuff breaks from grand blows or works loose from the pernicious vibration of small ones in transit.
Note for a different thread, check out the pallet, that is a real man's pallet.
A man who wanted to prevent forklift use, at that. And made no realistic provision for in-transit strap-down. To be covered in response to Russ' points... soon as I get some coffee....
He might have been wiser to expect eventual use of a forklift or equivalent (think both shoreside and shipboard gear at ports of the day as well as rail and truck terminals) somewhere out of sight and control of the factory, and insure that such were guided to pick up at just the right balance point, transferring load into the proper base structure via stout longerons.
Handlers down the line may never see the manual and can be expected to do as THEY see fit. A pallet or skids need shape and markings to make the better way easiest as well as obvious. Some will still get it wrong - just less often.
But putting the straps outside the bed would give much better stability, so doing it correctly as pictured wouldn't bend anything and provide better control than a strap through the middle of the bed (even assuming that there's a good hooking spot there as the 10EE has).
Correctly yes. 'As pictured' not. Some key elements are missing that we take for granted nowadays, to wit:
- control of the configuration of the lifting timber, its placement, securing against shifting, and how slings are placed and similarly secured is uncertain unless it is factory-furnished as an assembly. Nowadays, it might very well be.
But that part is not essential.
- what IS essential is to expect imperfections and guide and protect accordingly - in-transit tie-down included.
Each lathe could have had two inverted-U shaped wooden frames bolted to it. Only hints of comparable blocking are shown in Monarch's old illustration, and they do not cover the rods and leadscrew at all.
These should:
- leave the bottom of the bed casting clear for passage of a lifting timber or steel beam.
- cover the upper side of the ways to protect against tie-down damage or sloppy spreader-bar, hook, or chain handling.
- extend down over the rear, and more importantly front, of the bed to insure that any lifting gear improperly positioned or slipping inward would bear on the frames, not operating handles, leadscrew, feed and control rods, nor taper-attachment or rapid traverse if present.
- by their length, 'trap' the carriage and tailstock in the optimal position for balance per each bed-length of a given lathe in a series, serving also as fore-and-aft backup to the 'service' locking mechanism so carriage and TS wiper-cover castings do not collide and crack.
- by their upper-surface, preventing damage to the ways from in-transit tie-downs, even if such are unsheathed chains. As happens.
All 'custom' to each series and size of lathe, but each designed and vetted ONCE, implemented thereafter in batches by ordinary woodchoppas.
I hardly think that the Monarch 60 Operator's Manual was/is the appropriate place for a rigging lesson.
Agreed. Primary publication should have been on a clearly illustrated, prominent, and dirt and weather-protected paste-on at exterior of each machine. Updates free on request from factory.
But a copy in full agreement should also have been incorporated in the manual for the machine's SECOND and subsequent moves.
In that position you're dangling 8000 pounds of lathe like a cast-iron chandelier.
Nothing of the sort. I'm using a longer cross -timber, with scabs or eye bolts to insure the 'supplementary straps' mentioned cannot shift from their attachment further out on the timber than shown.
These will need compensating assymetrical take-up because most lathes are NOT perfectly balanced around the long-axis of their bed, and placement of 'main' straps on a timber is not immutable.
Carriages, geartrains, supports, and rods are front-heavy. Motor and drive placement to the rear may balance that - or overtip in the other direction.
Other straps are need to reach HS-endward AND TS-endward to resist tipping, as even if one starts in perfect balance, catching a dock or truckbed the wrong way can otherwise slide the whole precarious shebang out of balance with a destructively accelerating progression.
That must be prevented at-start. Before momentum gets to cast its vote.
I think they have it right in the image and description.
It will certainly work under optimal circumstances.
But the tool crib is too often out of stock on those, so the 'prudent man' test applies.
At then-current costs, ten or twenty bucks for cut-to-fit wood, a few bolts, and not a lot of labour send a visible 'grab it HERE' signal to even an illiterate. Thereby protecting a then-common-but-expensive machine tool from downline inexperience, fools and misfortune rather cheaply.
Still true today at far higher packaging costs for a now-cheap-but-scarce machine tool, if only 'coz insurance is dear and regulations tougher.
Mass of this magnitude can mindlessly destroy itself, other property - even lives - if given the least opportunity. We must deny it such opportunity at start, not in an accident report.
Fine. Draw your hoisting plan up with full specs and give it to the original poster.
I don't want to hand out a throwaway plan. I want folk to question and double-check 'coz too much 'conventional wisdom' is ...neither.
More than just stale or obsolete. Imperfect at the outset.
What the old illustration shows could go from:
- 400% of sling rating (vertical, 90-degree basket, sharp-corners protected, vertical drops at 4-corners from properly-spaced spreader bar above,
- down to roughly 40 to 70% of rating (sharpish corners, sub-optimal 'wrap', wide(er) incuded angle to single-hook.
And if that pic is hemp, as it appears to depict, de-rate yet-another ~50% if over 6 months old...
Of course the picture and paragraph do not go as far as ANY of that.... and those factors can make a massive difference.
Plenty of info online to prep for a safe DIY lift, or at least recognize if your rigger-of-choice is going about it properly.
If you can crib it up and get forks under it, using 6' forks from the headstock would lift it, since most of the weight is on the headstock end. Worst case you could also run a strap from the forklift mast to the tailstock end.
I wouldn't lift it as shown in that pic, since it's a different lathe, but you might be able to get away with slinging it under the bed, seems risky to me.
If I had to do it with a crane, I would use 2 slings, both run entirely under the machine, and the hoisting point offset towards the headstock side. If you can get a forklift, that's the way to go (IMO) with the forks entering from the headstock end. I just moved a 4000 lb. lathe that way myself.
Hey Cliff, Thats great that you got that machine! I had been watching it for some time on Ebay, Im guessing that this is the same machine, old Navy machine?? Let us know how it runs!
Originally Posted by cbrcliff
Gentlemen,
I have to go pick up my new baby and my only choice to pick it up is a crane/hoist. Can someone give me some insight on how to pick this lathe up?
If you can crib it up and get forks under it, using 6' forks from the headstock would lift it, since most of the weight is on the headstock end. Worst case you could also run a strap from the forklift mast to the tailstock end.
I wouldn't lift it as shown in that pic, since it's a different lathe, but you might be able to get away with slinging it under the bed, seems risky to me.
If I had to do it with a crane, I would use 2 slings, both run entirely under the machine, and the hoisting point offset towards the headstock side. If you can get a forklift, that's the way to go (IMO) with the forks entering from the headstock end. I just moved a 4000 lb. lathe that way myself.
Crane is actually safer and easier, despite all the fuss I may have raised. More importantly - it is what he has available.
A properly qualified crane operator will know ALL of that about sling placement, de-rating for angles and various attachment methods, use of snubbers and tagline stuff.... and much more. Rigging is mostly basic physics, common sense, and caution, just not the same parts of it some other craftsman uses every day.
Crane is actually safer and easier, despite all the fuss I may have raised. More importantly - it is what he has available.
I don't agree. In fact, I think it is much safer to lift the machine from underneath with a forklift than a crane from above. If I was lifting with a crane, I would want to run long slings under the entire machine, as I mentioned above.
There are many ways to skin this cat, but there is no question that the safest way is to lift it securely from under the entire machine so that there is no stress put on the machine whatsoever. By lifting it from under the machine, there is no more stress on it than there would be while it is sitting on the ground as it normally does for it's entire life.
..By lifting it from under the machine, there is no more stress on it than there would be while it is sitting on the ground as it normally does for it's entire life.
There certainly is unequal stress until one has a stout enough structure built UNDER to mimic that floor. To implement such, you are more likely to want to raise the lathe than diamond-saw a slab of floor and make that part of the load. Either being awkward chores for a FL, not to mention not amenable to pickup at just the right points 'til AFTER it is done. Which it is not, at present..
And it ALL goes pear-shaped Real Soon Now when the sumbitch tumbles OFF the forks.. Or even attempts to do ... or suffers the jolts of an uneven floor...
Short-bed 10EE with 3-point-mount design is happy enough with a forklift when on a stout enough pallet.
Longer-bed lathes, anything with more than two close-spaced 'legs', many mills, nearly all radial drills are among the nastiest machines to forklift. A pallet of copy-paper, they are not.
But few are all that difficult with a proper crane. Or two.
OP is quite fortunate to have a crane available. Darwinism and operator qualification vetting as it is, there are a lower percentage of idjuts running cranes than lift-trucks.
Woodland Hills, Ca. and some times Hutchinson, Ks.
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While a crane may have some advantages a forklift CAN safely lift all of the above machines without incident. The key is having a forklift that is well within the envelope for the lift in question. I have moved two radial drills; one a 16K pounder and a 12K long bed Monarch with our 24K forklift. All the big Monarchs I have seen have the bed casting below the feed rods and as such a forklift will safely and easily lift them. The lower bed casting is wide enough to provide plenty of support if the machine is not tilted severely, if in doubt use cargo straps to secure the bed casting to the forks.
On the radials and my big mill 11K of K&T's finest I use a chain to belay the upper section, on every lathe I have seen that is not needed for a standard lift and place move.
While a crane may have some advantages a forklift CAN
No argument. We could get into rollers and stiiff-leg derricks out of cordage and phone poles, too.
But none of those, nor a 12-ton capacity FL and skilled operator are on the ground in the OP's situation of 'all he has is a crane'.
If he had NEITHER? .. and one or the other had to be brought-in?
Simply trust the rigger he'd have to find to know their own gear, operators, and limitations, and keep THEIR risk and wasted time to a minimum. It's wot they do.
'Joe Average' with no training or certs as an operator, let alone rigger, may (or may not) be able to rent one or the other bit of lifting gear in a capacity large enough to matter. If so, it could be a piece of cake - or deadly foolish economy.
If one needs to do it often? Go take a training course, learn and grow. Great skillset to have in times of storms or Earthquake, and makes one more alert and better able to avoid FUBAR all round.
Otherwise, borrow the funds and hire a specialist.
Easier to recover from a modest debt of known size ... than damaged gear (any or several of cargo, lifting gear, and transport.), lawsuits, perhaps hospital or even funeral bills.
While a crane may have some advantages a forklift CAN safely lift all of the above machines without incident.
I agree. I'm not sure where thermite is coming from, but he seems to change his opinion in each of his posts. No disrespect meant, I'm sure he knows how to move equipment, but for myself and the equipment I have moved, a forklift is one of the safer ways to move heavy machinery. thermite seems to know more about what the OP has and doesn't have at his site, so I'll nod to him, even though I would do it with a forklift. The OP can do as he believes, advice on Al Gore's information superhighway is free, so it's worth what you paid for it. Use your own judgement.
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How do I pick this lathe up?
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Originally Posted by rke[pler
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