Just joined the 10EE club.

Serial number 6642 purchased yesterday from user "beemerphile". Pretty much all that needs to be said about this particular unit has already been covered in this old thread:

http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/monarch-lathes/10ee-round-dial-square-169863/

I'm new to the 10EE. Is there anyone making new compound and cross-slide nuts? The ones on this machine have seen better days.

It's got a "Torq-matic" motor conversion installed, has anyone seen this before?

If anyone has some favorite links to the special care and feeding required by these fine machines, I'll gladly take them.

She's got some wear on the ways, but less than I was expecting. Being almost 80 years old will do that to any machine. Looking forward to getting her home and setting her up.

Edit: add link to pictures file from beemerphile

https://beemerphile.smugmug.com/SOLD/Monarch-10EE/i-vMsNsvx/A

Zahnrad Kopf has cross-slide screws, stands to reason that he will have the nuts to go with them.

Check with Miller Machine they make a few EE parts.

Hal

Boxelder said:

It's got a "Torq-matic" motor conversion installed, has anyone seen this before?

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The components of it have been seen in other conversions, yes.

I'd need the full info off the controller to confirm the controller's actual OEM.
If it is the one I suspect, I probably have a manual for it here as .pdf.

There are modern DC Drives of better capability, still available new as well as used.

As a DC Drive upgrade is easy, what is even more important is the motor itself. The former Sundstrand (hydraulic final-drive) machines have limited space in their base castings, hence narrow choice of electric final-drive motors, DC OR AC.

What the present motor "is" dictates the sort of drive current and voltages needed.

If the motor nameplate cannot be read with phone-camera or mirrors or 'rubbings', then it is well-worth PULLING to lay eyeball on the nameplate. You need to know what you are dealing with.

Meanwhile, photos and anecdotal evidence indicates that particular 10EE has been given only half to two-thirds the power it could - and should - have available.

That isn't only about ripping greater chip-loads. 10EE are only very rarely run anywhere near their "ragged edge".

It is more about stability under ANY load, and across a wider useful range of RPM, when run well WITHIN their maximum potential. "Deeper reserves" than ordinary lathes, IOW.

If, as I suspect from size, that is a 2 HP 230 VDC motor running off the 180 VDC output of a 230 VAC-input controller? It isn't even getting a "full meal" for 2 HP, let alone 3 HP (which is not likely from the small size).

"Table scraps", rather.

A 50% power output increase, same motor, should be dead-easy, rock-stable, and not terribly costly.

Thanks guys.

When I get the machine home I'll dig into it and get some hard info on the motor/gearbox setup and post it here. I'll take any PDFs you might have regarding this conversion, as I've found little using my Google-fu.

I'd love more power, as I'm a member of the Tim the Tool Man Taylor club. How might I do this in a not-terribly-costly manner?

Is there a "standard" motor retrofit here in 2017 for the 10EE? Can you provide links to it for me please, if so? Are folks going with the three phase/VFD option? I've already converted a SB 10L to VFD drive, and it has met and exceeded my expectations on every level. That being the case, I'm inclined to leave the powertrain as-is initially unless it somehow disappoints me. To tear out a perfectly usable system would seem a bit wasteful. Just because it was made in the '70s doesn't immediately mean it's bad in my mind. At the very least it seems like quite some engineering was put into it, and hopefully they would have known about the motor loading requirements. We shall see.

Getting ahead of myself for sure, I realize I have a lot of searching and learning to do. I felt comfortable in the land of South Bend, but now I'm a visitor in a foreign land. But it's going to be a great adventure.

Boxelder said:

I've found little using my Google-fu.

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.. because it is an odd duck. Off-the-shelf components, but not even close to a common conversion as a "package". Might be one of three, or even one-of-one ever done that way. "Sundstrand" 10EE are rare to begin with.

How might I do this in a not-terribly-costly manner?

Click to expand...

Need more info.

Is there a "standard" motor retrofit here in 2017 for the 10EE?

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Not for "Sundstrand" base-casting. Not YET, anyway. You are one of only a few who even NEED that.

Otherwise, the "standard" is restoral to OEM.

That has been proven to work on Sundstrand drives onward, all 10EE variations known.

So long as one has, or can GET the parts.

3-P plus VFD can work. Where there is SPACE for the higher-namelate-HP motors it needs. Easy on roomy "Modular" base castings. Tight on MG-era. Pointless on Sundstrand base-castings.

Retaining DC Drive, where a 10EE HAD it - and done RIGHT - generally works better.

Too many substandard kludges of improper DC Drives masked that for very long years.
Nobody wanted to believe the effing MANUALS the DC Drive makers publish was the root of near-as-dammit 100% of that shortfall.

We can READ, now. So they JF WORK.



YOUR challenge - or any other Pilgrim with a Sundstrand base-castng - is limited space for the motor - at least in its "expected" location. AC motor or DC motor.

So don't jump into "Vee Eff Dee" just yet as a "solution" for your machine. It ain't.

OTOH.. "patience, grasshopper"

Ve haf begun plotting und scheming a few schwindels in der untergrund Frankenlaboratory..

Boxelder said:

I felt comfortable in the land of South Bend, but now I'm a visitor in a foreign land. But it's going to be a great adventure.

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"Long ago, and not so far away"... I have felt comfortable at the wheel of nimble FIAT 124 sport coupes, BMW "Bavaria", Alfa 75's, Audi TT's - Appalachia and the Rockies, to the Swiss, Austrian, and Italian Alps.

A 10EE is closer in personality to the Jaguar XJ8-L min-limo I drive now.

Smooth, quiet, unflappable... and more than fast enough over the same torturous, all-weather, two-lane blacktop when it is asked to be.

OEM Sundstrand electro-hydraulic drive 10EE were the "weakest" of the 10EE tribe, even brand-new, yet were damned fine lathes.

"We" should be able to at least match their original performance with "electricals".

You do not yet have that, AFAICS, but do-able it shall be made to be if you but have the stamina to see it through.

First, we need to sort the motor issue..

Going to pick up the wee beastie tomorrow. So excited I'm almost vibrating. Will add more pictures when I get her safely home.

Thought I'd do a drive-by and add a few more pictures from the time of purchase. Link:

Dropbox - Monarch 1EE

Does anyone happen to have an extra back plate for a Bison 6" Set-Tru chuck for the D1-3 spindle? The ones I've found on line are spendy.

Boxelder said:

Going to pick up the wee beastie tomorrow. So excited I'm almost vibrating. Will add more pictures when I get her safely home.

Thought I'd do a drive-by and add a few more pictures from the time of purchase. Link:

Dropbox - Monarch 1EE

Click to expand...

Either this machine has had more than one motor & drive change, or the list of parts used in the upgrade, third photo, has a clerical entry error.

It lists a 2 HP, 1750 RPM 3-Phase 440 V 60 Hz AC motor.

The motor currently present is DC. Actual power output awaits a look at the nameplate.

The Warner Electric SECO Q7000 DC Drive has a modern-day drop-in replacement, KB-Penta 4Q KBRG-255. Both are 230 VAC single-phase in, 180 VDC 25A out, 5 HP max. With a 180 VDC motor, of course.

A good deal less than motor nameplate HP if the motor was wound for 230 VDC or greater.

Does anyone happen to have an extra back plate for a Bison 6" Set-Tru chuck for the D1-3 spindle? The ones I've found on line are spendy.

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None that would work with the adjustment screws. Those need a raised boss towards centre, ELSE a thicker raw plate so one can be machined. CI isn't the best choice to stand-up to the screws - steel, rather.

Fuerda-Gator one might work. Odd relationship, Bison/Fuerda:

http://www.practicalmachinist.com/v...-gator-chucks-263467-post2008980/#post2008980

Mine - for the Fuerda-Gator 6" 6-jaw - is very nicely made. Steel, allegedly forged, as-is the Bison plate for one of my D1-3 5C key-closers.

Cost is typically 2 or 3 times that of a Shars Cast-Iron one, even NOS.

Thanks, great info! I'm trying to use the 6" Bison Set-Tru chuck which is currently on my Hardinge HLV (not the HLV-H, unfortunately.) The HLV is going to have to find a new home, as I purchased it on impulse last year and don't have the time (we just had our first baby) to reassemble the apron to figure out why they took it apart in the first place. At some point I'd love to own an HLV-H, but that's probably down the road a bit unless the perfect machine falls in my lap. Anyways, if you know anyone who might be interested in the HLV (minus the Bison chuck unless negotiated into the deal), just send me a PM and I'll send some pictures.

Boxelder said:

Thanks, great info! I'm trying to use the 6" Bison Set-Tru chuck which is currently on my Hardinge HLV (not the HLV-H, unfortunately.) The HLV is going to have to find a new home, as I purchased it on impulse last year and don't have the time (we just had our first baby) to reassemble the apron to figure out why they took it apart in the first place. At some point I'd love to own an HLV-H, but that's probably down the road a bit unless the perfect machine falls in my lap. Anyways, if you know anyone who might be interested in the HLV (minus the Bison chuck unless negotiated into the deal), just send me a PM and I'll send some pictures.

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I'd suggest you put the Hardinge in the appropriate PM forum, and plan to leave the already-fitted chuck go with it.

With the set-tru nuisance, there is scant savings in adapting it over just getting a new chuck.

If Hell - or Hong Kong harbour - should freeze solid enough to ever force me to permit a 3-J scroll under my roof, it would be ToS Svitany, not Bison, anyway. 2-J, 4-J, 6-J I have, magnetic as well, 3-J never.

The 10EE will also benefit from a collet system.

H&H Industrial Chinese 5C key-cranker on D1-3 is not "magic" but will get you started on the cheap.

Hardinge "loop" closer front-mount on D1-3, 2J collet system is magic ... if you can find one. Sjogren 2J or 5 C on D1-3 slower, but they work, too. Likewise RubberFlex 9XX and its marvelous grip-ranges. Better-yet, the front-closer Burnerd-Multisize, but those may as well be candied-apple-red five-legged Unicorns for their scarcity.

Photos show a LOT of wear on your 10EE's bed, but it does look fairly even, end-to-end.
It can allow you to "make that", as-is.

Interesting machine. Pre-War finish on knobs and other bits. Not many Sundstrand drive era 10EE were made, very, very, few still in service.

I'm interested in helping find better solutions in the way of 'electrified' systems to support those as have lost their hydraulic drives.

Advice well accepted and greatly appreciated. I've not really quite let fully go of the HLV in my mind, so no rush to get 'er gone. I did consider just getting a new chuck, and so we'll see. I don't have an aversion to them, in fact sometimes they're the quickest option.

But what do I know? This whole EE experiment is really just a way to get an extended test drive. I'm in search of the perfect lathe, and until you own and live with one, you don't really know. So far my experience has been South Bend and one non-working HLV. The wear on this machine was considered and is commensurate with price. For my sins I've been cursed with the desire to restore old iron, and my preliminary plans include either moglice or Rulon. Thoughts on this?

In the meantime, if it turns out to be more of a bite than I can chew, selling the accessories included will go a heck of a long way towards even-Steven. And this is my fun money. Some folks stick it into slot machines, others buy worn out lathes as old as their mother.

It's more about the learning process for me, really. I'm still super excited about picking up my clapped-out old beater EE. Maybe this experiment will prepare me for my One True Lathe. Surely she will eventually find me.

Boxelder said:

I'm in search of the perfect lathe,

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That's hilarious. Experience on watchmaker's lathes to six-foot-swing Niles, here.

The "perfect" lathe is whatever fits the tasking, AND.. is being operated 24 X 5 by OTHERS to make money for ME.

and my preliminary plans include either moglice or Rulon. Thoughts on this?

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Wrong guy to ask. Bronze, here. Plenty of others CAN guide you.

For me, plastic is best used for food and beverage containers. Even so, glass is better.

Bronze!? Ok, that's a new one on me. You can't drop that bomb then leave me hanging. What's the process on that?

I'm partial to something EE-sized and I don't need to make money with it. This opens up many options. For me it's all about the precision engineering. I always have an eye out for the Rivett 1020 or 1030. But I presume I'm not alone. Have you seen the one listed on eBay recently? The green one, not the patriotic one that's been on there forever...

Oh, and there's a Niles for sale on govdeals.com. Currently only a grand.

Boxelder said:

Oh, and there's a Niles for sale on govdeals.com. Currently only a grand.

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I was more than just "pleased" to see the back of them, actually. Mankillers, most were.

May pop a Champagne cork, last Niles on Earth hits the smelter.

Would probably mean I had lived to be 900 years old, though, so might need a minder to manage the decanting.

I see from the paperwork in your dropbox that it was originally sold to Bausch and Lomb. I bet the old girl made some interesting things during WWII!

Have a look at the bottoms of your follower and steady rests and the backs of any spindle tooling. See if the number stamped there matches the serial number of your machine. If so, it's original to the machine.

Cal

Will look tomorrow after the move. Any idea about the bronze way refurbishment suggested above? Dying of curiosity.

Boxelder said:

Will look tomorrow after the move. Any idea about the bronze way refurbishment suggested above? Dying of curiosity.

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Which is older:

Metal

Machine tools

Plastic putty

I don't think I understand the question.

I'm now picturing my worn out lathe bed with brass strips glued or riveted onto it, since the bed is worn. Forgive my inexperience.