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Lathe Drilling - Prevailing Wisdom?

reidry

Aluminum
Joined
Dec 27, 2012
Location
Cocoa, FL
I'm just getting my Monarch 10EE all settled in. Moving up from a flat belt Southbend 9A, I haven't had much drilling power in the past.

There seem to be four alternatives for drilling stock held in the chuck or on a faceplate.
1. A MT2 taper shank drill bit held in the tail stock.
2. Drill in a drill chuck with a MT2 shank inserted in the tail stock.
3. Drill chuck adapter on the tool post.
4. Morse taper adapter on the tool post.

I've only used #2 with jobber and silver & demming bits.

When starting with a solid and needing to open up a large bore, what is your preferred method (and why) of drilling a starting hole?

Thanks,
Ryan
 
I'm just getting my Monarch 10EE all settled in. Moving up from a flat belt Southbend 9A, I haven't had much drilling power in the past.

There seem to be four alternatives for drilling stock held in the chuck or on a faceplate.
1. A MT2 taper shank drill bit held in the tail stock.
2. Drill in a drill chuck with a MT2 shank inserted in the tail stock.
3. Drill chuck adapter on the tool post.

4. Morse taper adapter on the tool post.

I've only used #2 with jobber and silver & demming bits.

When starting with a solid and needing to open up a large bore, what is your preferred method (and why) of drilling a starting hole?

Thanks,
Ryan

# 5

Drilling with a monolithic holder-block attached directly to the cross-slide.

Not on the TP. Not on the compound. Stiffer. Better yet? Near-zero need of work to align it.

Think it through.

Conventional manual lathe drilling is ALWAYS on center of rotation, not on a bolt-circle as CNC goods or "live" tooling can do.

Large drill or small, it take exactly the same cross slide travel to place a "back mounted" block on the centerline "in and out" axis.

If that mount was "line bored" ON that lathe, it will always already be on vertical centerline. Make it for STRAIGHT shank, not MT, one can use ER, TG, DA, Ortleib... yadda, yadda..OR $%^&@ space-waster Jacobs/Albrecht style chucks.

Besides carriage-mounted drilling being able to use powered feeds and clear chips faster than the screw-operated TS can do, it can haul far larger drills.

No stress on the slender # 2 MT. More importantly, ZERO stress on the rather modest key and keyway inside the TS. Those don't have to shear-off to ruin your day. Failing at failure and just raising a burr will do that, too.

Not MY invention such drilling. Lots of smarter folks with "a need" a hundred years and more ahead of us.

Some found it such an effective approach they went on to build dual carriage turret lathes, BOTH carriages powered, and capable of a great deal more than just drilling!

:)
 
I'm just getting my Monarch 10EE all settled in. Moving up from a flat belt Southbend 9A, I haven't had much drilling power in the past.

There seem to be four alternatives for drilling stock held in the chuck or on a faceplate.
1. A MT2 taper shank drill bit held in the tail stock.
2. Drill in a drill chuck with a MT2 shank inserted in the tail stock.
3. Drill chuck adapter on the tool post.
4. Morse taper adapter on the tool post.

I've only used #2 with jobber and silver & demming bits.

When starting with a solid and needing to open up a large bore, what is your preferred method (and why) of drilling a starting hole?

Thanks,
Ryan

While a cross slide mounted tool block is very solid and ridged indeed, and I am planning to make just such a cross slide tool block for a repetitive job I am looking at, it is also inconvenient to have to remove the compound to use it. Particularly for 1 hole amidst other turning needs. I use the tailstock for the odd drilling task, and prefer taper shank drills over a chuck, but I have very few taper shank drills so I do use the chuck a lot.

CarlBoyd

C
 
While a cross slide mounted tool block is very solid and ridged indeed, and I am planning to make just such a cross slide tool block for a repetitive job I am looking at, it is also inconvenient to have to remove the compound to use it. Particularly for 1 hole amidst other turning needs. I use the tailstock for the odd drilling task, and prefer taper shank drills over a chuck, but I have very few taper shank drills so I do use the chuck a lot.

CarlBoyd

C

So do not remove the compound.

Take your scale out and have a look at the 10EE topslide. They made longer ones, too.
They even made some with dovetails already in place to mount all sorts of back-tooling.

It doesn't really need much space before one can anchor a toolblock with a good deal more muscle than a # 2 MT and a thin key can provide.

Angle plates are legal as well, y'see. Both directions, even.

"Hang ten" TS-direction, slide TS back or even OFF, and the holder for the drill can be well aft of the CL of the cross, providing space for a long nosed Albrecht. Or just a longer drill for a deeper hole.

Just brace it across the carriage "wings". It won't be moving "in-out", "up-down", OR long-axis in relation to their surfaces once set to centerline for use. Force of drilling is downward from attempted rotation, no need to fasten it, Fine adjusting screws for pitch? Maybe.

Short lathes, most 10EE are.

Cheating sometimes required! Great fun.. and the Wife ain't as likely to divorce you over it!

:)
 
Coworker used to use straight shank ER collet holders in a boring bar holder.
Stiff as hell, fast, adaptable, easy to align.
That’s what he liked.

Aloris makes 5c holders integrated into QC tool holders...eliminate the middle man.
 
Eliminate adopting a helpful idea, you mean.

First time you put any real force to an off-line-of-trust QCTP and rotate the silly sumbich, you'll be back in LOVE with TS drilling. If only because it has nought but centerline thrust!

QCTP is the middleman to be shed. So it the compound.

Can't do that, can't get the most "goodness"..

Better to go over to the drillpress for a starting hole, then back to the lathe for finish boring.

Lathes make shit-lousy drillpresses anyway. Chip evacuation isn't as balanced.

Damned gravity...
Make you sure you tell the generations of millions of machinists to use a drillpress.
I’m sure they will want to know they drilled billions of holes all wrong.
 
LOL! If ignorance is bliss, you must have just had a grand orgasm!

If you knew the least thing about heavy industry rather than hobby shop, you'd know we drilled ZILLIONS of holes with drill presses - radials especially. Engine Lathe was too precious as well as too slow, had other work to do. We had a BORING lathe, too. Advancing quill with about four feet of travel. Other firms had "gun" drills or trepanning rigs.

"How to run a lathe" just doesn't cover that.

It would have gotten yer ass chewed to waste time using a lathe for a starting hole or even a centre divot when there were drillpresses sitting right there that could do it better and faster. Eight-foot shaft and under, center was put into it with a radial. And we were a SMALL shop. Not even a hundred machinists, all three shifts.

He never had to install something on his lathe, make a custom height tool block, or any of therms....god idea. He just dropped a tool holder on, selected a collet and drilled his hole.
If needed, a larger drill went in the next collet, or a reamer...of a boring bar for that matter.

Worked for him...I guess therm can go run the war machine for the Russians and make sure they are not drilling holes on their lathes.

You'd ever had the privilege of a half day long walk, one end to the other through the vast machine-halls of a major arsenal at full 'round the clock wartime gallop, (Watertown) a major shipbuilding yard, (Newport News) or an automaking or aircraft plant? You'd have been amazed at how many specialized machines did what, with which, to whom, and then did it again, better, and faster.

We held no exclusive on that, either. Americans ate reasonably well, even worst part of those wars. Same era, however, Russians and Chinese were going hungry to make more rifle barrels, mortar and artillery tubes than good sense. China has at least sorted out that I-pads, appliances, and tools are far the better deal. Russia? What can one say?.
Make sure you find all the millions of people who drilled billions of holes on their lathes they did it wrong.
Especially tell those that drilled and tapped the holes on the ends of shafts they did it wrong.
There’s a reason the tool makers made tools designed to let people drill holes on their lathes.
Seems you know better than every turret lathe builder ever.
Next time I need a hole in the end of a 6’ shaft I’ll take it to the drill press.
I’ll use a drill press the next time I need a 6” Deep axial hole in a barrel too.
Don’t know why you are off onheavy industry and Cold War bull shit.
OP clearly stated his machine and intent.
He’s not walking a half mile to get to his 10ee.

Any how...back to the OP and setting aside the war stories and general noise of thermite here.
My coworker used a collet holder on the toolpost for drilling.
He modified a standard collet block and clamped it into a dedicated holder.

I never saw him durning really big drills, he would bore instead.

He wasn’t a big fan of the tail stock fo drilling, he liked being able to power feed and set stops.
 
Sad part is you think that is sarcastic. Long time since I had an 8-foot ATW handy, Limited by low ceiling to a mere AB5/S for home shop use - 9" plus hole depth. Each go.

I'd have to use the mill on the long shaft.

And there's another thing that can make holes well compared to a lathe, BTW.

Mills. Both GP horizontal and vertical, boring mills even more so.

If a craftsman HAS a mill, take its capabilities into account when deciding how far to push the time, tooling, and spend budget on lathe drilling enhancements. Of ANY kind. Even the choice of drills to stock.

Or, you can drill a hole in the end of the shaft with out reindicating is and not have to have a 20’ celeing for your ATW war time radial drill, indicating both ends in then taking it back to the lathe for more ops.
Give it a rest therm.
You’re being stupid.

OP wants to drill holes in the end of a piece on his lathe.
Something the lathe does just fine.

You are not doing anything more than cluttering yet another thread.

OP...
Many people use the TS.My friend didn’t unless he was out of room.

As I said, he used collets on the tool post.
I suspect he would have used a drill chuck if he didn’t have that set.
All the manufacturers make tool holders with chucks.
I guess they don’t have therm on staff to tell them not to drill holes.
They don’t take up a lot of space.
https://allindustrial.com/aloris-bx...MIwPHB6-DP2gIVCLnACh2HLwdYEAQYAyABEgIzI_D_BwE
 
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I have no connection to either thermite or Miguels244. I have tried all of the ways stated to put holes in a piece of metal. Each has its benefits and limitations. TS drilling is quick and easy, requires no special fixtures or tooling. It is self aligning withe the spindle. It does have a limitation of how much torque can be gotten from a taper fit tool. Spinning a drill shank in a taper pocket does no good for the taper. On the other hand, my Monarch TS ram has cross drilled and tapped holes for a drill tang for positive drive. I use up to 1 1/2" drills that way. I have tried power drilling with saddle and found it wanting. Alignment was an issue and for those adapters that have the drill center line off set from the mounting point to the cross slide, the drilling force tends twist the mount. Also, the off center torque tends to lift the carriage.

Drill presses are great for what they were designed to do. I have a job where I cut off part of the thread and shank of a lot of bolts from 5/16 to 3/4". I need a center in the end of the bolt to support it during turning. Very slow to do that in a lathe. With a drill press, it takes just a few seconds.

We have so many different machines available because each does a particular job very well. Use them where they are best.

Tom
 
We have so many different machines available because each does a particular job very well. Use them where they are best.

Tom

Prezactly.

Foreman and I putting the initial center divot into a monster shaft one 2d shift.. with a hand-held electric power drill. Three three inch bars, a five-inch, several GP mills, H & V, three radials 3' to 8', a dozen lathes..whole lot more machinery, yet.

And so busy all one saw any direction was chromate primer mist, welding fumes, grim looks, and dirty sweat.

First up, given about three or more inches had to come off the diameter anyway, was turning off enough HR mill scale to get a steady onto it.

THEN we re-cut for a better bearing, straighter, longer-lasting center and continued the march.

It ain't as if it were "religion", after all. The more options handy, the less time spent pondering how to out-clever yerself and f**k things up in a new manner.
 
Thanks for the input thus far.

I appreciate the insights as I have not had much experience with a lathe that makes enough power to do significant damage. Even though I pay attention to speeds and feeds, I appreciate the insight of experience before I push the envelope.

Let's say I need to open up a 3" hole in a 6" round. The largest bit I have on hand is 1". Sounds like the consensus is pop the chuck in the tailstock, drill a pilot hole the diameter of the 1" bit's web, then drill the 1" hole all with the tailstock. I was curious if using the carriage was somehow preferred to avoid the potential for spinning a tapered shank and damaging the tailstock ram's internal taper. Will a bit tend to spin in a drill chuck before the tapered shank spins inside the tailstock ram?

Under what conditions would you use a MT2 > MT3 adapters? Only to hold a large center? Drilling holes larger than 1"?

What about a large Silver and Deming bit, over 1"? Would you consider drilling a 1.5" hole in aluminum?

Thanks,
Ryan
 
What material are you working on? Al? An MT2 taper is kind of weenie for a 1" hole in anything serious. I would think about a smaller drill, and maybe two sizes of boring bar.
I know you are asking about a round, but also, keep in mind method #6, which is line boring on the lathe. Just one more trick.

regards,

Jon P.
 
What material are you working on? Al? An MT2 taper is kind of weenie for a 1" hole in anything serious. I would think about a smaller drill, and maybe two sizes of boring bar.
I know you are asking about a round, but also, keep in mind method #6, which is line boring on the lathe. Just one more trick.

regards,

Jon P.

Jon,

I work with a lot of 6061T6, rarely other Aluminum alloys. When working with cold roll or stainless I'm not normally working on such large parts. Once in a great while I'll have call for something in delrin, starboard or other easy machining plastics.

Ryan
 
have on hand is 1".

Let's say we are an employee and it is a "company" lathe, not our own one. Let's further say "Bargaining Unit" AKA "Union" employee, where there is a contract that specifies what is, and is not, in that person's job classification.

I bring that up, because even if you know HOW to make tooling for that lathe, you are not the one to do it, and are not permitted to do it.

However we got there, Union employee who "may not", or poor starving independent bastard whose budget - or just TIME not available - dictates that he "can not", the deal is you have to use what you have.

Now . .in the general case, how can we use a large drill (or tap, BTW) that might damage the TS if it grabs?

We CAN introduce a torque reaction bar to the mix. Just HS-ward of the TS snout, we have a clamp, flats, slot, hole, some means to attach a rod or bar one end of which is braced "somehow" so that it takes the force, not the slender key in the TS [1]

Taper still provides location. TS handwheel still provides the "push".

Generally, that reaction device requires "floating" the MT tail. OTHERWISE, the torque bar will only stop rotation AFTER the key shears off!

BTW - any photographs of any of us using 20" Crescent wrenches or Stillson pipe wrenches for this purpose were forged by communist agents! They LIE! Do not believe anything of that sort ever really happened. We always had hard-chromed and precision-ground bar stock stored in velvet lined cases covered in fine leather for this sole purpose.

Tell me you BELIEVE that, then you are far the greater liar than I, of course...

:D

[1]Some lathe TS actually have a provision for this built-in. A pin or the socket for a pin or shoulder bolt.
 
One thing I've found helpful, with either MT drills or a drill chuck on a MT shank is to use a sort of home made lathe dog to prevent them from turning and scoring the taper. You'll need a longer than usual taper shank on the drill chuck to fit this. On MT drills, I fit it to the shank when I think it will be needed. Depending on what you make, it can bear against the tailstock or bed.
 
Thought I'd like the tool post mounted ones for holing a MT shank. I too found it lifted the carriage on my 12\30 Hendey. Will see how it does on the occasional deep drilling where the bit will help keep it down and frequent chip clearing is needed.other wise its tail stock chucks for straight shanks or taper shank drills depending on which I find first in my mess of a shop.
 
I use 1 or 2. Tailstock is always ready to go and in line. Use a pilot drill size of the bigger drill web and you can step drill bigger too. Would never use TS unless chuck or drill has functioning tang to prevent rotation in taper. Method 3 is a pita to line up for one hole and if not lined up well drill will jam in the hole. Also in general more thrust is required for driiling than turning and i would never power feed a big drill with 10ee. Save the carriage feed for more important stuff. Method 4 seems to me overkill for a 10ee in a hobby or toolroom, not production environment.
 
Drill chucks are crude instruments that dig into and damage the drills. Collets are far more precise and should be used if you have the patience and wisdom to use them (and inventory).
 
Drill chucks are crude instruments that dig into and damage the drills. Collets are far more precise and should be used if you have the patience and wisdom to use them (and inventory).

Straight shank drills are for the most part easily replaced tooling, so I don't regret chewing up the occasional shank. I'd feel worst if it was a nice taper shank drill.

As for the original question: I put a fair amount of care into getting the tailstock of my 10ee in line and parallel with the spindle axis: I'm using it for drilling. Maybe if I had something way longer than the tailstock travel I would consider using the carriage with the drill in the toolpost, but given how long it takes me to get that setup parallel to the spindle and centered it would have to have a heck of a return on my time.
 
given how long it takes me to get that setup parallel to the spindle and centered it would have to have a heck of a return on my time.

They are built parallel to the spindle, and repeatable. Centering for drilling? One can add a witness mark.

The next increment of the return on one's time comes when that same strong, stiff structure is moved OFF center. Because it is holding a boring bar instead of a drill.

That does not "rule out" use of TP or TS, either.

Just one more multi-purpose arrow in the quiver.
 








 
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