looking at a 10ee

plumberpieco · Apr 6, 2011

I just looked at a round dial 10ee and after researching here and on Tony Griffiths site I'm puzzled at what I saw. I know pictures would be great but that will have to wait. Where the back gear and rpm speed selector should be there was a large hand wheel in its place, it was almost the same size as the carriage wheel. Don't recall if there is a back gear lever either. I will try to get another look as soon as I can make arrangements. Unfortunately the machine can't be powered up to see if it works. My wild guess as to the hand wheel would be some kind of retro fit Reves drive.
The inside front v way had some ware you could feel with your finger nail, no large noticeable ridges though. I know the saddle could be worse. A nice collet assortment and 3 jaw and 4 jaw chucks, no taper attachment. I can only imagine the costs in trying to fix a cobbled up drive system, or even fixing one that needs repair. For those of you who have had to do total restorations on these machine is it worth it. Keep in mind that I don't need this machine to put food on the table.
Thanks Z

peterh5322 · Apr 6, 2011

"I just looked at a round dial 10ee and after researching here and on Tony Griffiths site I'm puzzled at what I saw. I know pictures would be great but that will have to wait. Where the back gear and rpm speed selector should be there was a large hand wheel in its place, it was almost the same size as the carriage wheel."

Most likely an original Sundstrand drive machine (ca. late 1930s).

These utilize a three-phase prime-mover motor which COULD be replaced by a lower HP single-phase prime-mover motor, with a little sacrifice in performance (but with NO sacrifice in accuracy). Most probably a 2 HP motor.

The availability of the H.A.S. method (see Sticky) would allow such a machine to be converted to single-phase using the original 3 HP prime-mover motor.

There are Sundstrand 10EE owners/operators here.

They will soon speak up.

Cal Haines · Apr 6, 2011

I agree with Peter. The large handwheel is an identifying feature of a Sundstrand drive machine. This was the first generation of 10EE's, and had a hydraulic variable speed unit instead of the motor-generator or electronic drive used in later years. Sundstrand owners here include rimcanyon and bongo88 (Lee); the latter being the "newest" example I'm aware of, built 1-1941. Lee is currently rebuilding his.

Here's a photo of a very nice example of a Sundstrand drive machine, s/n 7153, which belonged to member cbright last I heard. Charlie hasn't posted here in a long time.

This is a photo of the Sundstrand unit in rimcanyon's machine:

I wouldn't hesitate to buy a Sundstrand machine if it was in good condition.

Cal

plumberpieco · Apr 6, 2011

Thats it! I really appreciate the quick responces.

plumberpieco · Apr 7, 2011

Now that I know what I'm looking at, what do I look for in trouble areas of this drive? I have been researching as much as I can on the Sundstrand model, and my conserns are :
1. what are the effective rpm range's without 2 speed reducer?
2. if the hydraulic drive is shot what's next?
3. should I look for a later version?
4. some ware on the ways
Advantages:
1. Maybe 5 miles away
2. 3 jaw and 4 jaw chucks
3. Some collets
Given these concerns and this is a less desirable model, and I live in an area where this stuff grows on trees. What is it really worth?

THANKS Z

rimcanyon · Apr 7, 2011

Harry will soon speak up. The main issue with the Sundstrand is that the parts have not been available for a few decades. Sundstrand still exists as a company, but has no knowledge of these units. None.

The drive unit is a variable displacement pump. Mine seems to be in good condition, but even so it does not have the same amount of spindle horsepower as later machines.

A machine with some amount of bed wear would suggest that there is a good possibility that the Sundstrand drive might be a source of problems and you might want to factor that in to any purchase decision. The Sundstrand drive does not include a 2-spd gearbox, so the expense of replacing the drive will need to factor that in (a used 2-spd gearbox would probably not be hard to find on this forum or from the other 10EE parts sources).

Suggest that you take a test cut on a 12" bar, check it for taper and finish, and then decide if this is the right machine.

-Dave

plumberpieco · Apr 7, 2011

Unfortunately the machine can't be powered up.

beckley23 · Apr 7, 2011

Hi Dave
While some have had a good experience with the Sundstand drive, mine was directly opposite. The drive was very weak, and very worn, and it was one noisy machine as far as the hydrualics go. In short you couldn't pay me to take a chance on one again.
You are totally on your own with the drive, Sundstrand doesn't claim it, yet the manual has their name all over it.
You're in Cleveland, my advice is to look around, or if the machine is cheap enough and you intend to get an EE, there is the tooling, and somebody is aways needing parts.
Harry

plumberpieco · Apr 7, 2011

Ok to put everything into perspective I have owned Sb 10k's , 10L and 13, Logan 14, Clausing 12's, Atlas 12, Sheldon 13, and Polamco 14. I still have the 10l which is an un adulterated virgin rediculously tooled machine
but has its shortcomings. Still have the Sheldon which is a metric only machine, regret getting rid of the Polamco and the 14 Logan.
I think I have become a "Junky " for this stuff. My knowledge expands every day either from fixing the mower spindle or making a 36" core bit extension for work. I'm mistified about exceptional tools. Can I get by without a 10EE, sure, but why not own one. I hope I'm not picking everyones brains for naught, but I think "our wants far exceed our needs" at times. At least in my case where this is not my livelyhood. By the way if you want a great pie recipe feel free to "PM" me.
Thanks for the great help: Z

DaveE907 · Apr 8, 2011

plumberpieco said:
Unfortunately the machine can't be powered up.

If in your area 10EE lathes are truly growing on trees, i.e. available and affordable, the earliest 70 year old version with a now unsupported hydraulic drive unable to be tested would be a walk on by scenario for most folks.

bongo88 · Apr 8, 2011

The lathe you are looking at is every bit as good as any other round dial, except that the drive is obsolete. I have two machines, a Sundstrand and a MG. The fit, finish and overall attention to appearance is better on the Sundstrand. I have looked into convertig it to a VFD if the hydraulic unit goes out. From the measurements I took you should be able to fit a 5 hp motor and backgear. You will have to pay attention to where you get the motor, and one from ebay may not do it. The other MG machine that I am rebuilding was working when I bought it, but the AC motor windings went bad right after I started using it. For perspective, I spent $700 rebuilding the MG. No matter what the drive is you take a chance.

plumberpieco · Apr 8, 2011

Any rough idea's what a back gear reducer is going to run? Does this bolt on to the motor face, and if so, what is the frame size? Not too worried about the motor if it's a common frame.
Thanks Z

plumberpieco · Apr 9, 2011

First off I'd like to thank everyone for the information . I made an offer and I'll see what happens. I think it may go to an estate sale. I certainly won't loose any sleep on an untested machine. As back up plans I have my eye on a real nice Hendey 12x30 18speed with more tooling.
Thanks again Z

murphatthepoint · Apr 27, 2016

hello Cal and other Round dial enthusiasts. The Monarch 10ee pictured in this thread, "looking at a 10ee" once belonged to Charlie Bright, belongs to me. Does anyone have any additional photos of this lathe, serial number 7153.I am trying to put the machine back together and any photos of it taken in this photos time frame would be super helpful. I have been reading everything I can to learn about it. The machine was pulled apart years ago to paint it and never put together again. Charlie did a great job on rebuilding the Sundstrand, i hope to finish it off.
Jim Murphy San Diego California email: [email protected]

mike.thomas1 · Apr 28, 2016

I have a 1940 machine with a failing Sundstrand. Its a beautiful machine and I am collecting parts to do a VFD conversion on it. I was even more unfortunate as I have a less common "high pressure" variant of the drive that isn't covered by the manual...

rimcanyon · Apr 29, 2016

murphatthepoint said:
hello Cal and other Round dial enthusiasts. The Monarch 10ee pictured in this thread, "looking at a 10ee" once belonged to Charlie Bright, belongs to me. Does anyone have any additional photos of this lathe, serial number 7153.I am trying to put the machine back together and any photos of it taken in this photos time frame would be super helpful. I have been reading everything I can to learn about it. The machine was pulled apart years ago to paint it and never put together again. Charlie did a great job on rebuilding the Sundstrand, i hope to finish it off.
Jim Murphy San Diego California email: [email protected]

Jim, welcome. No photos of Charlie's machine to offer, but any photos you need related to a Sundstrand drive machine I will be happy to provide.

Dave

Cal Haines · May 5, 2016

murphatthepoint said:
hello Cal and other Round dial enthusiasts. The Monarch 10ee pictured in this thread, "looking at a 10ee" once belonged to Charlie Bright, belongs to me. Does anyone have any additional photos of this lathe, serial number 7153.I am trying to put the machine back together and any photos of it taken in this photos time frame would be super helpful. I have been reading everything I can to learn about it. The machine was pulled apart years ago to paint it and never put together again. Charlie did a great job on rebuilding the Sundstrand, i hope to finish it off.
Jim Murphy San Diego California email: [email protected]

Hi Jim,

I'm glad that this machine has popped up again.

Your machine was listed on eBay in 2005. I grabbed the eight eBay listing photos, which are not very high resolution. The machine looked pretty nice in the photos and had a reasonable amount of tooling shown.

Charlie showed up here with it in 2009. He was going to have the base, etc., powder coated. We haven't heard from him since and he didn't reply to a personal message that I sent to him several years back.

Here are the links that I have related to the machine:

http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/monarch-lathes/old-10ee-100414/
http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/monarch-lathes/monarch-10ee-1939-a-176207/
http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/monarch-lathes/1939-monarch-10ee-sucked-into-emotion-176617/

The last link has some photos that Charlie posted.

I'll e-mail you the eBay photos and what photos I have of the two machines that have close serial numbers, EE7148 and EE7155.

I would be grateful for any photos that you have of the machine.

Cal

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