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Looking for royal and monarch 10ee 5c collet parts

guythatbrews

Titanium
Joined
Dec 14, 2017
Location
MO, USA
I have the royal collet closer and a monarch step 5c chuck that measures about 3.35" at the end of the closing taper. What I need is the "gear" that fits to the end of the spindle that the thumb tab on the closer locks into. Royal no longer supports this. Can make but would rather not. These are hardened because the fingers that do the work bear on face. If i make one I will use a big thrust washer on the face, $5 from grainger, much cheaper than heat treating!

Also need a d1-3 closer for a standard 5c collet. If I can't get one I think I will make an isert for the step chuck closer to fit the standard collet. Removable of course! Not sure but maybe the one I have is for a 3" step chuck. It has been used gently in its former life.

Anybody out there have anything they might part with?

Thanks!
 
I have the royal collet closer and a monarch step 5c chuck that measures about 3.35" at the end of the closing taper. What I need is the "gear" that fits to the end of the spindle that the thumb tab on the closer locks into. Royal no longer supports this. Can make but would rather not. These are hardened because the fingers that do the work bear on face. If i make one I will use a big thrust washer on the face, $5 from grainger, much cheaper than heat treating!

Also need a d1-3 closer for a standard 5c collet. If I can't get one I think I will make an isert for the step chuck closer to fit the standard collet. Removable of course! Not sure but maybe the one I have is for a 3" step chuck. It has been used gently in its former life.

Anybody out there have anything they might part with?

Thanks!

Coupla thoughts. As with the thrust washer idea, save time by setting a DIY or adapted steel 5C taper closer bushing onto/into an inexpensive ready-made CI D1-3 backplate.

Steel or semi-steel backplates cost waay more money, (Bison & Gator here).

There is no pressing need to do the camlocks and taper DIY. A Shars o/e is good enough, especially the thicker ones with provision for adjust-tru hub, and given you'll finish it in situ on the spindle anyway.

Meanwhile.. a 5C key-cranker on D1-3 back ELSE flat/no back, 4-J gripped, and you'll be making stuff whilst the search for drawtube goodies continues.
 
Thanks for the tips thermite. Still hoping someone may have just what i need. Good news is I'm not in a tearing hurry. I do really want to stay with the lever closer for speed's sake. This lathe is a support machine and since I don't have a speed lathe (yet) this will stand in. I really dont want to spend the time winding a key. I think a few hours work will get me there if nothing better turns up.
 
Thanks for the tips thermite. Still hoping someone may have just what i need. Good news is I'm not in a tearing hurry. I do really want to stay with the lever closer for speed's sake. This lathe is a support machine and since I don't have a speed lathe (yet) this will stand in. I really dont want to spend the time winding a key. I think a few hours work will get me there if nothing better turns up.

PM member "alskdjfhg". He just might still have an incomplete but more than just-partial Royal with all or most of what you still need. The rear goodies were all in working order, IIRC.

Not actually a fan of USING key-crankers meself. Cheap and fast to mount so as to tide me over for small money 'til I got the two Sjogren 2J, one Hardinge front "loop" closer 2J, two Rubberflex 9XX, and the beloved Burnerd Multisize now planned to grace the HBX 360.

I only HAVE 5C at all for their cheap and cheerful plentitude of collets, hex, square, etc included. 2J otherwise preferred - and thank you, PM'ers who pointed out their greater ration of goodness to me.

Also space-eating drawtubes not allowed, this roof. At all.

10EE are bore-challenged enough already.

:)
 
Well the ubiquitous 5c does the job for me right now. And just need a few pcs to make what i already have do the job. Chucker work only and small dia at that. Don't need the spindle bore at all. Easy to bore an emergency collet with a shoulder. And cheap. Fits my hardinge indexer too. For sure not right for all but fits my bill. Kinda like beer. Lots of flavors for different tastes. Ashamed to say but this will be used for light deburring for the few screw machine parts that might not quite be there in the burr department. When i'm ready to spend more i will get a speed lathe which is really the right tool for this job anyway.
 
shars 5c closer

So I slept on this and decided if the step chuck closer I have is Monarch I don't want to modify it. Seems like I have read moanrchs are through hardened and also they are not. Also I believe Cal said they were never marked and looked pretty rough. Mine is rough, not marked, has the huge key with slotted screw adjustment, and appears to be ductile iron.

1.jpg

20180215_084441.jpg

2.jpg

So is this a genuine Monarch? If it is I think I will get a shars backplate as you suggested and attach a made 5c nose. The shars keyed d1-3 closer is cheap but still have to modify for royal closer. Is the shars hardened? ANd lots of VERY cheap stuff on ebay. Pics look nice but has anybody seen one? Hard to believe they can be worth a damn!

BTW I did send the PM you suggested. Thanks!
 
So I slept on this and decided if the step chuck closer I have is Monarch I don't want to modify it. Seems like I have read moanrchs are through hardened and also they are not. Also I believe Cal said they were never marked and looked pretty rough. Mine is rough, not marked, has the huge key with slotted screw adjustment, and appears to be ductile iron.

View attachment 220698

View attachment 220699

View attachment 220700

So is this a genuine Monarch? If it is I think I will get a shars backplate as you suggested and attach a made 5c nose. The shars keyed d1-3 closer is cheap but still have to modify for royal closer. Is the shars hardened? ANd lots of VERY cheap stuff on ebay. Pics look nice but has anybody seen one? Hard to believe they can be worth a damn!

BTW I did send the PM you suggested. Thanks!

I looked for one of those before I was aware they were not Monarch-pretty and decided not to purchase what I thought were shop-fabbed goods!

Ended up with a Hardinge threaded, not tapered closer mountable as a "false nose", rear taper supplemental stabilizer/closer, so am as well-off, if not perhaps better-off. Hang-out is only slightly greater, and the wise just do NOT stress work held in these chucks in any case.

Shars backplates are CI, not at all hard, nor all that thick - hence the need of an insert or stand-on for the 5C.

As to the bolt-on closer shape and such? Have a look also at those for power as well as manual use, 2J and others as well as 5C:

5C 16C 3J R8 Collets

DIY'ed for drawtube use, the general type can have much less hang-out.

Personally, I'd try for a press-in, top-hat cross-section, make more than one, as 5C lobes its closers over time.
 
I haven't had this machine for long and haven't had a camlock key. .325" square fits nice. The key I ordered was to diminutive to do the job so back it went. Occurred to me to modify a 3/8 drive extension. Have too many anyway.

So I just took off the 8" buch adjust-tru 3J that come with the lathe. Some numbskullions have operated this in the past and they left their mark on the spindle nose. Nothing atrocious and the nose runs true but ouch! As they say you can't fix stoopid!

Very surprised to find the nose is soft! I've never seen a camlock spindle nose that was as soft. Usually a fair degree of hardness, I would think at least Rc45 for a guess. Are all 10ee noses soft? Will likely true it up after I pull the cross slide and check it all out. Cross slide is a bit tight and needs looking into first.

I guess in the next week or so I will get this all pulled together one way or another. Thanks for your input thus far.
 
adjust-tru 3J that come with the lathe. Some numbskullions have operated this in the past and they left their mark on the spindle nose. Nothing atrocious and the nose runs true but ouch! As they say you can't fix stoopid!

Nose on either of my 10EE is not "hard" as I know "hard" from years of making press punches and dies, but neither would I class it "soft".

"Stoopid" IMNSHO was making space anywhere but a welding bench for a 3-J self-off-centering scroll.

That is not "just" about the adjustability of a 4J independent. Rare that I bother getting centering even as close as a BAD 3-J scroll. Seriously.

DN TIR is simply seldom needed when there is plenty of material to be removed. EVEN IF.. a second op needs work to be put back into the chuck? Then, and ONLY then - for that op - will I bother to center it to uber-silly numbers.

Soo. the 4-J mavins who tease 3-J serfs about our ability to rapidly split a thou? A "tenth", even?

We lie. A lot!

Most days we don't bother even with anything tighter than five thou!

Who wants to f** with a dial indicator, anyway, when a chalk mark serves well-enough?

:)

Here, it actually has every bit as much to do with the greater clamping force directly-opposed, screw-not-scroll actuated jaws can apply.. when asked.

Secondly, that 4-J independents are no LESS accurate even when rather badly worn, 'coz it is my job to minimize TIR, not that of a damaged or worn scroll.

Then again, with an abundance of collet systems I had been largely deprived of, most of my life, the 4-j sees less use that it did when it was sole player - spent fifty and more years on a spindle, never once removed.

If you've ever been around olden-golden days job shops and mining/rail repair shops?

The fifty years is not hyperbole. Understatement in many cases, rather.

2CW
 
Well that was a dash in the face of common and good practice and not really warranted!

FYI thisn ain't my first rodeo either. And you realize the adjust tru chuck can be indicated in just as close as a 4J ever can and is quicker to do so. As for the junky commodity chucks you can buy now, you have a much better point. They won't hold a wild cats tail firmly.

Started learning in my Dad's shop at 12, working in the trade by 17 making production parts on old school manual machines even shapers and planers, BSME by 24, owned my own CNC shop for 30 years. Lot sizes one to a hundred thousand or more. Gear cutting and grinding, CNC screw machines, and manual support equipment. All very nice equipment not dirty maintenance machines 30 years old (hah my 10ee is 63 tho!). So yeah, I guess I've been turning handles for 47 years. Very close to 50 years! And with the smallest dash of hyperbole lets just say 50. Never vetted myself in an mining/rail shop but also didn't know that was a drawback.

Now I own a new shop exclusively Swiss style CNC. Max capacity 32mm. I got the 10EE just as support equipment for making the bushings and other things that can clip a few seconds out of a part. Stuff you just can't buy or is ridiculously expensive. Not making a living with this one you understand, just making the living mo' better. If I make more than one part on this lathe it will be unusual. Lathe came with the chuck and it's a good one so I will use it. I gaurantee if it had come with a 4 jaw my first purchase would have been a 3j buck chuck, albiet probably a 6" if they make 'em.

If I hired an engine lathe operator that insisted on a 4 jaw for every part he made he wouldn't last the day. With a quality 3 jaw adjustable chuck the operator can throw a part in to rough and finish one end about as quick as he can pick up the chuck key. Then flip the part around, indicate to whatever the part requires down to the tenth range in a minute if it's not already there, and finish the job.

So that is just my considered opinion. Which I am entitled too same as you are yours. Maybe you didn't intend it or are having a bad day or whatever and nothing personal, but you kinda came off as a bully.

$W
 
Well that was a dash in the face of common and good practice and not really warranted!

LOL! Sure don't sound to me like a person who could even BE "bullied" with a Court-Order, let alone by accident!

"With all thy getting.. etc."

Long and short of it, the very nature of a lathe is to generate right-circular features, be they cylindrical, conical, complex curved, or combinations, thereof. Wotever else, it is HARD to turn anything else even WITH a relieving attachment and its drive.

But that ain't the show-stopper for a 3-J. That would be the stock a lathe starts with.

It may not be anywhere NEAR right-circular, nor even regular, even if it needs a round bore, boss, face, groove, or stub axle placed somewhere - offset often enough - on it

Besides..

3-Jaw scroll OR a 4-jaw independent - any other manual chuck on a CNC I'm wanting a business unit to earn coin with?

As the "decision maker" for the whole facility - where I've spent waaay more time than ever I did personally making chips?

I'd fire the BOTH of us!

:)

What had better be on that spindle won't own a scroll.

Collet, collet pads, chuck operated by wedge or levers, rather, and for damned sure power operated.

Onesies? Prototypes? R&D?

Round stock, and "right circular" not complex, as a 3-Jaw is essentially limited to?

An Ortlieb "Quadra" is flexible. No shortage of competition for it, either.

No shortage of non-scroll power chucks easily tooled - and flexibly so, to a fare-thee well as can be rather nicely operated in place of a manual chuck, onesies, fewsies, or many.

Those CAN be tooled to hold a casting, weldment, or milled part that is not "round" atall.

That leaves most manual chucks - any jaw count - as the province of a whole nation of folks living off what - sadly - have become small meals - even table-scraps. And retirees and hobbyists, of course.

And we? You and I?

Are probably BOTH classifiable as dinosaurs, prone to argue over the content and quality of what's been put out the back door of other folks fine dining establishments.

Used collet systems come readily to mind..

I'm sure we can manage to come out OK off that.. sure as Hell had plenty of practice at it, no?

:)

PS: I'm actually in a rather GOOD mood. Check "EQT" today. More than just a single thousand share block held on that one. A lot more!

Buggers get back up off their arse, may not need to be rag-picking over used workholding!
 
Well I was just looking for some parts and info and all of the sudden I'm skinnin' cats. Not a hair left on the poor little thing! At the end of the day I'll bet we can agree these are sweet little lathes! Best to you and thanks for the help!
 
Well I was just looking for some parts and info and all of the sudden I'm skinnin' cats. Not a hair left on the poor little thing! At the end of the day I'll bet we can agree these are sweet little lathes! Best to you and thanks for the help!

Yeah.. dunno HTF we got offsides on that? Old Fart syndrome, my side.

Sorta figured it was Christmas or sumthin, any shift I got a ROUND item to do, railway locomotive axles, 100 HP DC motor armature, 100 HP end-bell seal. Not much else was ever round bodied.

So there you have it. No one person in this trade lives so long as to jump around enough to see all the possible nuances and priorities of it.

Part of PM's value is a place for us to exchange what we each DID see, help expand each other's "coverage" and understand more of the bigger picture.
 
I think the 'gear' can be made from a stock gear, I've got all the fixings out in the shop for mine that I've never gotten around to mounting (have to make some mounts on the back of the headstock as well as drill & tap the headstock so there's some chance that I'll never bother). I can check it to make sure, get the tooth count and DP.

On chucking I use a 3 jaw if the stock has the material that I need to make an outer pass. It ought to be concentric after that, or I've got some real problems. If I need to preserve the OD of the stock and it'll go through the spindle I use a collet. The few things above that go into a 4-jaw.

Back when Harry Bloom was around (beckley23) we got to talking about faceplates. I mount up a faceplate a few times a year, Harry said that he'd never done it in his 40+ years of machining. But then he considered anything under a 1/4-20 a "no see um" thread, was astonished to hear that I'd worked with 000-120 and regularly used 0-80 (heck - I've got some 0-80 set screws).
 
I think the 'gear' can be made from a stock gear,
IIRC, it DID resemble one that had had the teeth cut back to Acme-ish stubs. That said, the DP might be serious-weird for the diameter as they were rather wide ones. Grain of salt. Thats' only a visual memory as it passed JLeather to me, thence to Matt.
was astonished to hear that I'd worked with 000-120 and regularly used 0-80 (heck - I've got some 0-80 set screws).

Good on yah to work those tiny threads!

Opening of the 1960's, #000-124 we mass-produced on Herr Pelz' "personal" uber tuned-up Iron-bearing SB 9" - so long as in Brass or Alpaca metal. He had built a geometric die head for that, so it was FAST!

Move to stainless? They bought a custom-order Hardinge with borderline insane extended RPM top-end. Low yield rate, even so.

New Plant Manager arrived, same year, took one look, went into his office, placed an order for the first ten thousand with Vallorbs Jewelry in Switzerland.

Said we had gotten 'em cheaper than we were using + wasting in SS stock costs alone. Vallorbs' ordinary, everyday, all day, all year, every year rice bowl, and we didn't have TIME to learn what they already knew about making them fast, cheap, and on-spec.

:)

All respect to our beloved Harry, but.. dif'rent strokes. I have four 10EE faceplates, would feel crippled with fewer than two. One sub-plates, tools and fixtures 'em. Not near as useful "naked".
 
So I slept on this and decided if the step chuck closer I have is Monarch I don't want to modify it. Seems like I have read moanrchs are through hardened and also they are not. Also I believe Cal said they were never marked and looked pretty rough. Mine is rough, not marked, has the huge key with slotted screw adjustment, and appears to be ductile iron.

View attachment 220698

View attachment 220699

View attachment 220700

So is this a genuine Monarch? If it is I think I will get a shars backplate as you suggested and attach a made 5c nose. The shars keyed d1-3 closer is cheap but still have to modify for royal closer. Is the shars hardened? ANd lots of VERY cheap stuff on ebay. Pics look nice but has anybody seen one? Hard to believe they can be worth a damn!

BTW I did send the PM you suggested. Thanks!

I will go out on a limb here and say yes that is a Monarch collet chuck. as I have one just like it. It uses a Hardinge style step collet where it clamps on the taper of the periphery of the collet and not on the neck taper like usual 5C , 2J etc. I was thinking of boring and putting in a 5C taper in the throat in mine so I could use both styles of step collets, but haven't got roundtuit. I would probably have to modify the collets also.
 
I will go out on a limb here and say yes that is a Monarch collet chuck. as I have one just like it. It uses a Hardinge style step collet where it clamps on the taper of the periphery of the collet and not on the neck taper like usual 5C , 2J etc. I was thinking of boring and putting in a 5C taper in the throat in mine so I could use both styles of step collets, but haven't got roundtuit. I would probably have to modify the collets also.

Fortuitously, my Hardinge one was settin' just back of my shoulder. It does have BOTH tapers, and AFAIK is meant to use both tapers, anything large enough to HAVE the outer backside taper, ELSE not.

I have 'ordinary' collets, no back taper at 2" and below, larger ones that have it.

Extra deep ones require it most of all, 'coz 5C alone does not have the balls to close those ones. Hardinge listed these goods clear up to 7". I stopped collecting at 5" as starting to get too optimistic for the potential stresses, already. I do not ordinarily work Aluminium nor plastics, steel or Bronze rather, so... "YMMV"

FWIW-not-much:

Collet is first drawn-in so the smaller 5C activates. Outer rear ring and its closing taper are moved into supplemental (dominant, actually) bearing by running up their threaded support with pin spanner or tommy-bar.

If I've gotten that wrong, I am all ears, as I have no brochure, cheat-sheet, nor manual. Used goods, all. So far.
 
If I've gotten that wrong, I am all ears, as I have no brochure, cheat-sheet, nor manual. Used goods, all. So far.

The ones that I have (all Hardinge - I've got 2 through 6 in the regular and the extra depth) don't have the regular 5C taper but only engage on the periphery of the collet. If you look at the holder above you're see a slight taper on the inside of large diameter - that's the bit that matches the collet. I expect that's so that all the gripping force is from up near the work, leading to less distortion than if you were trying to apply grip on a 6" diameter from down at the root of the collet.

But it's possible that the chuck above also has a 5C taper for a regular 5C collet for the odd time that you want to throw a regular 5C collet in for the quick job. I know that I added that to my threaded adapter that mounts these big collets.

Here's a link to Hardinge's selling page for the regular depth (max 1/2") "step chuck":

https://shophardinge.com/categories.aspx?catid=372

And here's one of the images found under there, the 'regular' taper is clearanced:

1375a.jpg
 
All respect to our beloved Harry, but.. dif'rent strokes. I have four 10EE faceplates, would feel crippled with fewer than two. One sub-plates, tools and fixtures 'em. Not near as useful "naked".

I would expect that he made very few eccentric sheaves and such where a faceplate is ideal for the job.

And I think I've got 4 of the Monarch 10EE faceplates as well - 3 are visible here:

10ee_faceplates.jpg


Most of the jawed chucks are here:

10ee_chucks.jpg


Collets occupy another 3-4 drawers.
 








 
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