Moglice & Machining 10EE Carriage

gernoff · Aug 5, 2016

I have always intended to Moglice my carriage in place but thought I'd get away without having to machine to carriage for clearance bases on the amount of wear my machines ways were showing. Well, bought a parts lathe and it's ways are in near pristine condition! Am surprised to find that none of the wear evident in the old machine is in the carriage itself. Put the carriage on the new ways and a preliminary measure to the feed screw show that it's within 10-20 thousandths of where it needs to be.......

Long winded story short: I will need to machine clearance into the saddle for the Moglice. Anyone know of an angled cutter that could be used for machining the prismatic way with the carriage laying flat on the mill vs. fixturing it at an angle and all the associated setup hassles. If I cannot find an angled cutter (chamfer tool maybe?) I'll probably knock together a single point tool with a carbide insert.
Well, off to Google up available cutters. I will post pictures as I progress.

Erik

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Zahnrad Kopf · Aug 5, 2016

Hey Gernoff - You are MUCH better served to simply kick the head of the mill out to perform this operation. I am getting ready to do this myself, once I finish up the headstock alignment.

vettebob · Aug 5, 2016

I used a 1/2" 45 degree (v) end mill and nodded the the head on my Bridgeport to match the angle ground on my ways. In my case it was 62 degree's. Devitt says .060 thickness for their product machine it rough for grip not a smooth finish. Bob

gernoff · Aug 5, 2016

Sounds good. Need to spend some time getting an accurate measure of the distance to the feed rod this evening so I know what to take off the carriage. The 10-20 thou I quoted above is just a quick and dirty first look I did last night. At work right now so cannot double check but IIRC my apron top to feed rod centerline distance is not 6.375" its 6.2something" I image a lot of things have probably been done to this machine over the years since the 40's. While typing this it occurs that if material had been taken off the top of the apron to account for wear in the past it would explain why things are close to alignment now with my unworn ways.

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gernoff · Aug 5, 2016

Pictures to follow. There are nice deep oil grooves in the carriage ways. Anyone recall what the clearance distance from the front flat way up to the carriage should be?

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gernoff · Aug 5, 2016

Correction: Verified that I have 6.72" dimension from apron top to feed rod centerline.

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220swift · Aug 5, 2016

Can't wait to see some pictures.

Hal

Zahnrad Kopf · Aug 5, 2016

gernoff said:
Correction: Verified that I have 6.72" dimension from apron top to fed centerline.

Where exactly are we referring to, here?

gernoff · Aug 5, 2016

Meant feed rod centerline. Distance from feed rod centerline to the top of the apron is what I will be using when fixturing the carriage for moglice. You can then measure from the feed rod to the flat where the apron mounts to the carriage when positioning it before the moglice.

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Monarchist · Aug 6, 2016

gernoff said:
Meant feed rod centerline. Distance from feed rod centerline to the top of the apron is what I will be using when fixturing the carriage for moglice. You can then measure from the feed rod to the flat where the apron mounts to the carriage when positioning it before the moglice.

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Not being contrarian, but I plan to work off the leadscrew CL rather than feed rod.

My rationale is that the feed rod has a tad more permissable flex without impairing function or imposing wear, whilst preserving costlier half-nut alignment and remaining life by honoring leadscrew concentricity has a greater assured economic payback.

More of a 'priorities' choice than correctness/not or even ease of measurement. Even though I do have three sets of half nuts among two needy lathes, thanks to Maynah's part-out, I have not yet ascertained if I have two really good ones in the lot.

I have the advantage that I can use the least-worn of the two 10EE as-is to fair precision to make test cylinders, jigs for assisting in measurement, etc. whilst rebuilding the more-worn one first.

JM2CW

Bill

gernoff · Aug 6, 2016

Have to agree with you logic, except: the mesh of the feed worm to wheel is a fixed quantity whereas the half nuts are adjustable for vertical position. I have been making measurements to both as a sanity check. Once I've adjusted the carriage to where I 'think' it should be I'll mount up its apron and check mesh to the rack as a final verification before cutting any metal.

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vettebob · Aug 6, 2016

When I rebuilt mine I used the feed rod centerline as well because of the adjustable half nuts. An easy place to take measurements is the bottom of the way in relation to the bottom of the apron. The way bottom was ground when the lathe was made and receives no wear. Bottom of the apron machined when way channels were machined and this is what the carriage is bolted to. Also make sure the rack gear mesh is not to tight. Bob

Monarchist · Aug 6, 2016

gernoff said:
Have to agree with you logic, except: the mesh of the feed worm to wheel is a fixed quantity whereas the half nuts are adjustable for vertical position.

Yer right, of course. Bob as well.

Glad I brought it up anyway. A few words have saved me a good deal in the way of contortions.
Rather be branded an 'attempted fool' virtually, at a distance, than cripple the old bones & ligaments, locally and literally.

Monarchist · Aug 6, 2016

vettebob said:
When I rebuilt mine I used the feed rod centerline as well because of the adjustable half nuts. An easy place to take measurements is the bottom of the way in relation to the bottom of the apron. The way bottom was ground when the lathe was made and receives no wear. Bottom of the apron machined when way channels were machined and this is what the carriage is bolted to. Also make sure the rack gear mesh is not to tight. Bob

Great 'package' of info, Thank you!

As I have TWO low-height round-dial to do now, one of the 'take aways' from that is that in my case, it will be productive to fab a support rig to not only be able to support apron et al for removal & installation, but one that includes convenient adjustable supports for quasi-precise positioning.

Nothing exotic. Mostly seasoned Oak, probably. Just built for the purpose to attach to the base rather than jury-rigged from odds and sods of scrap and drops and overhead slings.

Other threads had already made it clear that one dasn't get way with handling the saddle and apron 'just once', so I may as well make it easier.

Bill

RC99 · Aug 6, 2016

Like this?

Cal Haines · Aug 7, 2016

As long as the leadscrew and feed-rod heights are good at the tailstock end of travel for the carriage, you're good to go. A field expedient rebuild was done on my machine (and on at least one other), that involved machining down the saddle about 0.040" and lowering the right end bracket by that amount. My leadscrew and feed rod run up hill towards the headstock and there are no issues. Not idea, I agree, but it works. I'm sure that the leadscrew will suffer additional wear due to the misalignment. This is only offered as a data point as to how accurate the spacing needs to be.

Cal

Monarchist · Aug 7, 2016

Cal Haines said:
A field expedient rebuild was done on my machine (and on at least one other), that involved machining down the saddle about 0.040" and lowering the right end bracket by that amount. My leadscrew and feed rod run up hill towards the headstock and there are no issues. Not idea, I agree, but it works. I'm sure that the leadscrew will suffer additional wear due to the misalignment. This is only offered as a data point as to how accurate the spacing needs to be.

Hard to understand why Bubba would perpetrate a lawnmower-deck wheel-swap "adjustment" grade travesty like that when he's got the saddle off for machining anyway, could have raised it to correct height, had a better fit EVERYWHERE, and had less overall work to do to complete.

What would you need to put right?

I'll have to look at the goods in from Maynah's part out, but for-sure I have a round-dial leadscrew, feed rod, and half-nuts spare. Not sure whether I have a bracket or the surfacing drive parts.

Bill

PLC · Aug 7, 2016

Pardon me for being particularly dense, but Bob when you are referring to the adjustable half-nuts, where exactly is the adjustment made? Is it simply using the space in the oversized hole machined in each half nut?

vettebob said:
When I rebuilt mine I used the feed rod centerline as well because of the adjustable half nuts. An easy place to take measurements is the bottom of the way in relation to the bottom of the apron. The way bottom was ground when the lathe was made and receives no wear. Bottom of the apron machined when way channels were machined and this is what the carriage is bolted to. Also make sure the rack gear mesh is not to tight. Bob

gernoff · Aug 7, 2016

Correct, adjustment is via the excess slop in the holes for the mounting bolts.

vettebob · Aug 7, 2016

PLC said:
Pardon me for being particularly dense, but Bob when you are referring to the adjustable half-nuts, where exactly is the adjustment made? Is it simply using the space in the oversized hole machined in each half nut?

Yes the half nuts have elongated slots in them {at least my bronze ones do} the attaching bolt nuts are accessable after removing the threading dial. Then you can get a wrench on them. Bob

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