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Is the Monarch 10EE considered....

CreeCustomGuns

Plastic
Joined
Jul 5, 2017
Probably a really dumb question...

Is the 10EE considered a "clutch lathe"? The feed on the lathe is engaged with a clutch, but I don't think that is what a "clutch" equipped lathe is talking about, but I might be wrong.

Thank you!

Andy
 
Probably a really dumb question...

Is the 10EE considered a "clutch lathe"? The feed on the lathe is engaged with a clutch, but I don't think that is what a "clutch" equipped lathe is talking about, but I might be wrong.

Thank you!

Andy

No, it is not. A characteristic of "clutched" lathes is that their final-drive, or "main" motor may be run without turning the spindle (or feeds). Until, of course, a direction is selected and the clutch - which is "sometimes" part of the reversing system - is engaged.

By allowing the motor to keep running, fewer stressful start cycles ensue per shift = longer life for the motor, and easier life for the in-plant "power grid".

As a 10EE's DC motor is inherently soft-start capable, starts are not especially stressful, even when it is NOT "ramped up" to speed.
 
So throwing the lever that turns the spindle starts the DC motor, which is not on until that lever is thrown, correct?
 
So throwing the lever that turns the spindle starts the DC motor, which is not on until that lever is thrown, correct?

If you mean the "motor switch", operated by a short lever just aft of the spindle nose, yes. It may also incorporate a sort of lockout safety (XOR, "exclusive OR") some era's of production.

The "mechanical" action of it, any case, only opens and closes electrical contacts sitting against cam profiles on the shaft.

There is no mechanical linkage exiting the cavity it resides in that could be utilized to operate a friction clutch - if even a 10EE had such a critter [1]. Such a feature COULD be added, backside exit, but even so, would be easist if electrically controlled, not via operating rod or cable.

"ELSR" variants do not all even have that switch. They'll do the same basic foo off a switch at TS or atop the threading direction shaft "bulge", then also add control for their reversing option.

Paker-SSD DC Drives introduce a different option. "Single knob" control is the default, just not mandatory.

One knob or lever selects OFF/BRAKE when centered, direction and speed IN that direction, either side of center, so it inherently offers "creep" capability, and even paint-can shaker benefit if one has the patience to just rock it back and forth rapidly.

Vee Effing Dee conversions have wotever the particular VFD chosen brings to the party. "Creep" or "Jog" MAY exist. Controls for external braking resistors MAY exist. Ability to shake paint or operate at six to fiften minutes for ONE revolution - Dee Cee or "servo" tricks, mostly - are a tad less likely.


[1] What it DOES have is a lever, clevis, and bell-crank operting rod for engaging / NOT the reduction gears. The "clutch" there is a dog clutch, though. IN or OUT, nothing gradual about it, and NOT MEANT to be shifted "on the fly", either.
 
Advantage that clutch driven spindles generally have is the ability to run from forward to reverse almost instantly at virtually any spindle speed...(drive motor remains running and does not change direction when the spindle is reversed)
This becomes a real plus when doing metric threads to a shoulder.
Lathes having inch lead screws but fitted with metric transposing gears for metric thread pitches have to keep the lead screw half nut engaged throughout the entire threading cycle...
This means taking a pass, stopping the spindle , then reversing the spindle to back the carriage up for the next cut.....That forward/stop/reverse with a electrically controlled motor driven spindle takes time and length of cut to accomplish.
Working close to a shoulder can become a challenge...especially if you are running at a spindle speed that gets the cutting speed up where you get good chip formation....
Running , stopping and reversing the motor (slugging) in a short time interval is hard on the motor and usually requires more physical distance to accomplish the cycle (motor inertia)..so working close to a shoulder becomes a
more difficult task....

Of course if you never do any metric thread cutting, then the point becomes moot....
Cheers Ross
 
Advantage that clutch driven spindles generally have is the ability to run from forward to reverse almost instantly at virtually any spindle speed...(drive motor remains running and does not change direction when the spindle is reversed)
This becomes a real plus when doing metric threads to a shoulder.
Lathes having inch lead screws but fitted with metric transposing gears for metric thread pitches have to keep the lead screw half nut engaged throughout the entire threading cycle...
This means taking a pass, stopping the spindle , then reversing the spindle to back the carriage up for the next cut.....That forward/stop/reverse with a electrically controlled motor driven spindle takes time and length of cut to accomplish.
Working close to a shoulder can become a challenge...especially if you are running at a spindle speed that gets the cutting speed up where you get good chip formation....
Running , stopping and reversing the motor (slugging) in a short time interval is hard on the motor and usually requires more physical distance to accomplish the cycle (motor inertia)..so working close to a shoulder becomes a
more difficult task....

Of course if you never do any metric thread cutting, then the point becomes moot....
Cheers Ross

do it backwards :)


dee
;-D
 
Of course if you never do any metric thread cutting, then the point becomes moot....
Cheers Ross

Even more "moot" if taught - around 1959 - to never cut a thread, left handed or right, internal or external, US, Metric, wotever..TOWARD a shoulder or blind-bottom to begin with.

See that girl, dressed in brown? Honey, Babe?
She goes better upside down...

And/or "back tooled"...

Certain pre-versions do have legitimacy as well as intimicy.

:D
 
to never cut a thread, left handed or right, internal or external, US, Metric, wotever..TOWARD a shoulder or blind-bottom to begin with.

Well, must be nice to work in a world that has such absolutes.....You ".NEVER" made a part that couldn't have a thread relief against a shoulder?
Cheers Ross
 
Well, must be nice to work in a world that has such absolutes.....You ".NEVER" made a part that couldn't have a thread relief against a shoulder?
Cheers Ross

Plenty of 'em. BIG ones, usually, but not always. Started my tool by hand or tommy-bar, powered safely AWAY from said shoulder.

Not a damned thing "nice" about it, either. Survival trick, rather.

Lathes involved were almost always worn-out crap, War One era Niles, the odd 1930's L&S, mostly. Clutches and such were worn, slack, grabby, jumpy, not to be trusted to do much of anything predictably without some form of delay, argument, surprise glitch. 30" inchers, on average, heavy work, lots of inertia involved, too. Threads are like highways, after all. Even a Dardelet runs both ways when being CUT. Just not when a nut has been tightened.

:)

Anyhoo... it "worked for me", was not the least bit uncommon in the day, as quite a few thousand other skilled hands of that lean and hungry era did the same whenever they could do. "Repair" work/ "pickup" off existing threads, and wanting to preserve a still-pristine original shoulder the most common need of all.

FWIW-even-less-dept? It doesn't even need a lot of thought if one was taught that way from the outset as a teen-ager and has stashed appropriate tooling to make it easier.
 
Well, must be nice to work in a world that has such absolutes.....You ".NEVER" made a part that couldn't have a thread relief against a shoulder?
Cheers Ross

You have point there, but why would you be required to cut a thread without a relief? I hear that it may be a requirement, I just don't get, for what purpose.

dee
;-D
 
You have point there, but why would you be required to cut a thread without a relief? I hear that it may be a requirement, I just don't get, for what purpose.

dee
;-D

Wasn't on our "bargaining unit" plate to challenge the "why" of it. One did as asked by print or foreman. "Make it like this other one", was all we usually got.

Surely you have SEEN these, though?

There's commonly a relief ELSE registration area / thrust managing shoulder beyond and ABOVE where the thread ends. Some threaded lathe spindles are good examples.

Last fraction of an inch, the end is the classical "spear point" ogive shape a vee-thread leaves as it's vee-bottom appears to rise-up out of a curved surface.

Functional? Probably not. I'd venture most never even get touched in that area by the mating item's threads. Those are usually relieved at the ends as well.

It does look nice. And is hard to fake by last-instant retraction.

NOT so hard to pick-up on, manually, as a consistent-by-extra-effort STARTING point for reversed thread cutting.
 
Wasn't on our "bargaining unit" plate to challenge the "why" of it. One did as asked by print or foreman. "Make it like this other one", was all we usually got.

Surely you have SEEN these, though?

There's commonly a relief ELSE registration area / thrust managing shoulder beyond and ABOVE where the thread ends. Some threaded lathe spindles are good examples.

Last fraction of an inch, the end is the classical "spear point" ogive shape a vee-thread leaves as it's vee-bottom appears to rise-up out of a curved surface.

Functional? Probably not. I'd venture most never even get touched in that area by the mating item's threads. Those are usually relieved at the ends as well.

It does look nice. And is hard to fake by last-instant retraction.

NOT so hard to pick-up on, manually, as a consistent-by-extra-effort STARTING point for reversed thread cutting.

I know all of those "i am in charge", "don't ask questions" and the rest arguments, and if you can do it no reason not to do it, but if the equipment does not support it, then it becomes just a useless burden, right? Or am i overthinking this? Lets put it this way, i would not not get a Monarch 10EE just because you cannot do this one thing.

dee
;-D
 
I seem to recall that API threads (drill stem) doesn't end in a relief and also has a Higby start. The reason for this recollection is that one of the first threads I ever supervised being cut was an 6" API. I say supervised because I didn't set things up and the thread retract was done with a pneumatic retraction tool that sounded like a gunshot when it popped.
 
I know all of those "i am in charge", "don't ask questions" and the rest arguments, and if you can do it no reason not to do it, but if the equipment does not support it, then it becomes just a useless burden, right? Or am i overthinking this? Lets put it this way, i would not not get a Monarch 10EE just because you cannot do this one thing.

dee
;-D

Dee? That 10EE bit has no more legs than a blacksnake.

We - many of us, not just ME - were doing it on War One era clapped-out Niles, 1930's Large & Shapely's, or any other lathe put under our hands that could be run in reverse and didn't easily lift the off-side of its carriage. Not a likely event on a Niles that needed a traveling crane to switch out a massive 4-Way for the seldom-used compound rest with a smaller 4-way, anyway.

All had clutches, yes.

Need faster reverse on a 10EE than "usual". Still don't need a mechanical clutch.

Put a broader-shouldered Parker-SSD 514C 32 (32 Amp) onto it instead of the -16 Amp one. If-even. 12+ FL motor, and my -16 set to allow 24 A? I can shake a paint can with it arredy.

Use the already provisioned external inputs to over-ride the minimum delay built-in, and get used to the THUMP and belt-chirp as it snaps that Dee Cee motor between forward and reverse in sub two TENTHS of a second rather than two whole seconds. 3-P has no patent on instantaneous reversing capability. It just lacks the light show to go along with the sound track!

:)

Or bump-up the available field power to overcome inductive inertia and "Field Reverse" it with a contactor.

But only if/as/when you really NEED that. Kinda hard on stuff...

Or fit a reversing gear and mechanical brake and clutch. Space enough can be made.

A non-issue really.

If there had been a genuine need, there wudda been a factory option sometime during the past 70-80 years arredy. Monarch's one was to sell you one of their OTHER lathes 'stead of a 10EE. That simple!

:)
 
... **** ...

Well dee, since I have been cutting threads for **** 50yrs, and on an EE for 25, this is how it is.
Within its capacity, the later EE lathe are outstanding machines for threading, ones most geared for it have the ELSR feature and when set, one can thread at much higher speeds right to the bottom of a blind hole, or up to a shoulder. No clutch, the spindle is dynamically braked by the DC drive.
It even gets better when no relief groove is wanted such as in hydraulics, when the spindle is tripped off by the ELSR, the drive contact switch drops out with an audible click, at that point, the tool is withdrawn and the thread will fade out in about 1/2 turn in the bottom of that hole or up to the shoulder ... ****.

donie logging off!
 
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do it backwards :)


dee
;-D

Bit TEDIOUS to have to go and use another computer to view that. Yeah - he eventually got to the point, and even got me thinking a QCTP vs my beloved 4-ways might not be a BAD idea after all, wot with that "lift" fail-safe.

OTOH.. here's what also works - especially if.. the part is massive, costly, rare, etc - and the lathe is OLD, no stops, no QCTP, not a lot of "goodness" left in its bones of any kind.

Power-off..

- manually place the tool-tip where you plan to start walking AWAY from a shoulder or other feature.

- Engage threading.

- Engage half-nuts.

- Dig the HSS-not-Carbide tip INTO the metal. (F**king carbide would chip..)

- Tommy bar it to insure all is going the needed direction and in sync.

- NOW engage power & clutch whilst advancing tool the rest of the way for that pass.

Go light up a Camel. Or so was my won't back in the day.

Worst case, the threading tool is 6 feet down-bed clear of the 6" long thread on the work. No foul. Still four to six feet clear.

Now. REPEAT that finicky power-off and tommy-bar initial manual tool sync and alignment each go. It is the ONLY critical step, after all. All else is vanilla threading 101 - just upside down tool.

Even on a nineteen-teens clapped out Niles fifty-incher, yah gets a downright lovely looking start to a good thread. That simple. That common back in the day. The video-maker's Grand Dad wudda been laffin' at how he made a "big deal" out of it.

The Hendey dog-clutch assist works really well. So, too the Cazeneuve system.

The Monarch 10EE earliest-days manual LSR and later Electrical LSR do NOT, in fact, work quite as well as either of those other worthies. More "latency" in the ELSR reaction time is unavoidable.

By cutting AWAY from a shoulder or feature, it simply no longer matters. Great lathe, average lathe, or outright POS lathe - we are not ASKING anything critical of it.

KISS method.
 
The Monarch 10EE earliest-days manual LSR and later Electrical LSR do NOT, in fact, work quite as well as either of those other worthies. More "latency" in the ELSR reaction time is unavoidable.
... **** ...
 
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Hey Donie- welcome back, it would be great to have you posting again, especially in the Monarch forum.
I for one, miss your insights and sense of humor.

Seems to me like all the discussion of clutches in this thread misses one of the main advantages of the 10EE in general--the braking and quick responsiveness of the motor. Makes threading to a shoulder easy and predictable, no upside down tool on the back side of the part required. The ELSR just makes it easier and a lot faster.
I can't speak to the earlier versions of the Monarch drive but the Modular has excellent braking and can reverse the motor with great control.

As to running a thread relief groove--lots of applications where it is not allowed, for various reasons. For example, mil spec M16/M4 rifle barrels- no relief allowed. Lots of hydraulic threads do not have a relief.
 
Seems to me like all the discussion of clutches in this thread misses one of the main advantages of the 10EE in general--the braking and quick responsiveness of the motor. Makes threading to a shoulder easy and predictable, no upside down tool on the back side of the part required. The ELSR just makes it easier and a lot faster.
I can't speak to the earlier versions of the Monarch drive but the Modular has excellent braking and can reverse the motor with great control.
By comparison with lathes as have "none of the above", the 10EE ELSR and electrical braking and reversing looks "OK", yes.

By comparison with lathes that used good clutches, fast mechanical reversing, or assisted synchronization - the Hendey and Cazeneuve are noted for that, but are not alone - it was common on several European lathes - it isn't quite as good.

Reversed cutting - away from a shoulder or other "limiting feature", be it upside-down tooled, or "back" tooled, takes care of the "other" lathes as have NO fast or reliable assistance.

May not be "as necessary" on a 10EE, Hendey, Cazeneuve, but still - it isn't hard, it CAN work with a terminating undercut, and it can still work with an even greater margin against error.

As to running a thread relief groove--lots of applications where it is not allowed, for various reasons. For example, mil spec M16/M4 rifle barrels- no relief allowed. Lots of hydraulic threads do not have a relief.

Yes. Thanks. More common than some might wish.

It also applies to parts for mining, rail, and electric motors. There is usually a stress relief in the form of a specified radius, no sharp shoulder wanted, either.

But there may NOT be an allowed undercut at thread end, even IF radiused to not become a stress-riser.

Designer "wanted it all"? It was our job to deliver. We did so. We still do. BFD.
 
"By comparison with lathes as have "none of the above", the 10EE ELSR and electrical braking and reversing looks "OK", yes.

By comparison with lathes that used good clutches, fast mechanical reversing, or assisted synchronization - the Hendey and Cazeneuve are noted for that, but are not alone - it was common on several European lathes - it isn't quite as good.

Reversed cutting - away from a shoulder or other "limiting feature", be it upside-down tooled, or "back" tooled, takes care of the "other" lathes as have NO fast or reliable assistance.

May not be "as necessary" on a 10EE, Hendey, Cazeneuve, but still - it isn't hard, it CAN work with a terminating undercut, and it can still work with an even greater margin against error.

As to running a thread relief groove--lots of applications where it is not allowed, for various reasons. For example, mil spec M16/M4 rifle barrels- no relief allowed. Lots of hydraulic threads do not have a relief.
Yes. Thanks. More common than some might wish.

It also applies to parts for mining, rail, and electric motors. There is usually a stress relief in the form of a specified radius, no sharp shoulder wanted, either.

But there may NOT be an allowed undercut at thread end, even IF radiused to not become a stress-riser.

Designer "wanted it all"? It was our job to deliver. We did so. We still do. BFD."

... **** ...

To help clarify this subject.
When the Monarch EE Electric Lead Screw Reverse-ELSR is used the halfnuts are left locked in. The cutting pass is made, the tool withdrawn at the end of the thread, then the machine is reversed, the carriage wound back to the start. Leaving the half nuts locked in prevents losing the lead,-the threading dial is no longer accurate.
The function of the ELSR on English threads is for the most ossible accuracy, as using the half nuts can have small errors, because the half nuts may not close exactly each time causing the carriage to be alittle ahead or behind. This problem shows up at the worst time, on the finish cut.

Now, when cutting English threads, and the ELSR is used, the machine can be run much faster then the halfnuts can be engaged and disingaged.
Lets say you are cutting a 14pitch thread at 300rpm, you can slow the machine down and use the the half nuts with the thread dial to rough cut the thread, then speed up the machine leave the nuts locked and take the finish cuts making for the most accurate possible thread with the machine. This, depending on the length of the thread may save some time and less stress on the machine and drive.

...

Alright, Spindle control. the key to how the machine cuts threads.

When the spindle lever is moved to forward- The spindle will reach speed in about 2 seconds, It does not matter if the speed is 400 or 4000.

When the spindle lever is moved to neutral, the DC motor turns into a generator, then the armature voltage is dumped into the large coil resisters, thus dynamically braking the spindle to a stop, again regardless of the speed in "2 seconds"

When the machine is already running in either direction, the control lever moved directly past neutral to the other direction, the spindle will come to a complete stop and pause for 2 seconds, then reach the reverse speed in another 2 seconds.

The speed control knob, when it is turned up with the machine running slowly there is a dead smooth speed increase that leaves no lines like adjust reeves drives while cutting,
When the speed knob is turned up rapidly, the systems acceleration relay pours power to the armature until it reaches the new set speed by a reference voltage controlled the module.
When the speed control is turned down rapidly, the quick slow down relay engages the dynamic brake and the machine will run at the new set speed in 2 seconds.

It is the spindle control and dynamic braking that makes the Metric, and or precision threading possible.
 
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