Is the Monarch 10EE considered.... - Page 2
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  1. #21
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    I haven't been on in the last several days, so I'm behind on reading all the posts. It looks like this thread has gotten pretty hot, so I'm going to lock it for now, until I have a chance to look it over in detail. Apologies for any inconvenience.

    Cal

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  3. #22
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    Thread edited to remove profanity (replaced with "****") and to remove off-topic comments.

    Thread now unlocked. Sorry that it took me so long to deal with this.

    Cal

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  5. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cal Haines View Post
    Thread edited to remove profanity (replaced with "****") and to remove off-topic comments.

    Thread now unlocked. Sorry that it took me so long to deal with this.

    Cal
    Thank you, Cal. That was about a light and precise a surgical trim as could have been made.

  6. #24
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    Let's see if we can take an objective and unemotional second look at where ELSR stands.

    First to keep in mind is that the 10EE was not Monarch's only lathe. Most of their others DID have mechanical clutches.

    Next is that "2 seconds" time limit. That is about as rapidly as either DC Drive or VFD drive ordinarily brake or reverse their motors, even today. Faster is possible, but the stress on the motor goes up - potentially by a great deal. Servos and steppers can be built to deal with this all day long. Even in the 1930's. War Departments of wealthy nations - or desperate ones - bought them for the best weapons systems as could be had - warhips and gunnery, mostly. Cheap, they were not. NOW they have so become. Sort of.

    10EE were older motor designs, They are awesomely good, but not so good that "instant" reversng would not be harmful to motor, drive, and controls.

    The ELSR then was a bit of a compromise.

    It added a useful feature, even if the nature of the rest of the powertrain prevented that being as pistol-shot hard and fast as mechanical or air/solenoid/hydraulic assisted mechanical means as were used on other lathes.

    Claims that ELSR is the only solution, or the best solution are simply not supportable against the weight of evidence out there in the world at large as applied on OTHER lathes.

    Some of those other lathes with fast mechanical systems were made by Monarch themselves, right under the same broad factory roof as their 10EE were.

    That didn't seem to bother Monarch, then. Why should it bother us, now?

  7. #25
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    Hey Bill why not show us threading you have done on one of those lathes you claim to an expert on.
    Bob

  8. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by bob View Post
    Hey Bill why not show us threading you have done on one of those lathes you claim to an expert on.
    Bob
    Why? I've made no claim to personal expertise AT ALL. Simply contributed back what I have gathered up from research. And I DID that research. Some of it over just short of 60 years ago. Some not until after deciding to buy the HBX-360-BC far more recently.

    On this question? I'm but detective, messenger, library clerk, reporter, even "summary writer" on the information here. Not the inventor of any part of it.

    Doubt the research? Do your own. Same goods lead to same makers as sources, ultimately.

    How well any one amongst us - or NOT amongst us - can single-point threads - or NOT - has nothing to do with this thread. Nor any other.

    Clutched lathe, or not, the 10EE, was where the question began after all. What VALUE a clutch - or lack-therof- offerred as to USE of amachine-tool? Welllll.. that sidetracked into single-point threading, but that is not, actually, the only operation the question might be applied to. Fast stop or reversing can matter a GREAT DEAL more when using taps and dies under power. Not everyone has tapong heads or geometric dies. An undercut at the end of a thread run may not be much use there! "Reverse cutting" not a likely option, either!

    Information exchange, knowledge expansion, mining of history for still-useful techniques, as-had or modified - evaluation of possible NEW techniques, fleshing out factors as might alter the choice in a purchase decision or a make/buy decision - and above all, common to every one of those, problem-solving, PM is about.

    The top line of the page "masthead" sez it well - just it was surely MEANT to do:

    Largest Manufacturing Technology Community on the Web
    Our site founder, after all is a "rennaisance man". Competent in MANY areas, and ever-seeking new information. I like that.

    Show and tell "neat doo-hicky making 101"?

    Well. lots of clever new things do appear here on PM. They are much appreciated.

    Most are a helluva lot more complex than a length of threads, though.

    More to the point - PM is about sharing. Not about competing.

    EX:

    A) "You might try changing to <DOC><feed><insert><coolant> for that alloy and get better surface finish."

    B) "Thanks, I'll try that if this <other thing> doesn't work."

    -Which may or may not be directly useful, but may help some OTHER reader, and has a good chance of keeping communications open and attracting other answers.

    AND NOT:

    A) "I can deliver better threads than you can, a**h**le."

    B) "Yah thinK? S**** You, then. I just ordered a length in precision-ground stock held to a quarter of a micron. Top that, ****wit!"

    Which proves what? That an average craftsman can beat a better craftsman (presumng he even WAS better) so long as "B" has more mONEY to use as a weapon? Who gains? And WHAT?

    I rather suspect you'll get more of THOSE jollies for yerself on a "my thread is shinier than your thread" hobby forum?

    Here? Not to so much. We have other fish to rectumfry.

    Don't forget to send us the odd postcard, willyah?

    Last edited by thermite; 04-16-2018 at 07:57 PM.

  9. #27
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    So, what does ELSR stand for?

    Tom

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    Quote Originally Posted by TDegenhart View Post
    So, what does ELSR stand for?

    Tom
    "Globally"?

    Lots of things, one can be sure.

    But HERE, Monarch Forum "Electric[ al | tronic] Lead Screw Reverse'.

    As others have mentioned, BTW. and long ago, that is not exactly what it does, either.

    It merely creates the window in time that allows the OPERATOR to perform the reversing within a narrowly bound zone.

  11. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by TDegenhart View Post
    So, what does ELSR stand for?

    Tom
    ELSR stands for Electric LeadScrew Reverse, which is a bit of a misnomer. It's a mechanical system that turns off the spindle drive when either of two movable stops is tripped. Reversing the leadscrew (or feed) is done by the operator. Some machines are also equipped with a rapid reverse option that allows the spindle to run at a different speed when reversed. Together with the threading stop on the crossfeed dial, the systems allow for rapid threading with the half-nuts left closed: you thread forward until the left stop is hit, back out the tool (which may be done as the spindle is slowing, as donie suggests), throw the lever to reverse the spindle, causing the carriage to move rapidly to the right until the right stop is hit, which shuts off the spindle. The operator then moves the tool back in using the thread-dial stop, adjusts the thread depth as needed, and repeats the cycle. Square-dials allow the thread depth to be adjusted using the cross-feed dial. One round-dials, the thread depth must be adjusted via the compound.

    Cal

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    What Cal said.

    Take note that at core, the 10EE ELSR system is as simple "electrically" as the Hendey T&G system is simple "mechanically".

    Both ask the operator to do some important work.

    Both make that work proceed at lower risk of error and higher rate of progress than an unassisted all-manual operation might support, even in experienced hands.

    Both, BTW, remain general-pupose, super-precision all-around-useful lathes. These systems do not unduly interfere with other functionality, do not add great cost or unsupportable complexity to the machine, and can be learned by operators of average skill without long or costly training.

    Call those "market wins", the Hendey system built-in as "standard", Monarch's ELSR an extra-cost option in its day. An option not all that commonly ordered, but..

    Not because it didn't work. Because there was a choice. Many buyers had plans for use of their brand-new 10EE that didn't include enough single-pointing of threads to matter and could buy something more useful to their plan instead. Or maybe just a few more three-Martini executive lunchs. I wasn't in the room. Well... the Martinis, yah.. way it was back in the day.



    Cazeneuve's approach to threading, "manual" lathe era, is from another planet entirely, and their CNC has grown even weirder angel's wings to pick up on a repaired section automagically and blend it in to the good threads either side of it, "hands off".

    CNC mavins may chuckle, but guys? This on repair parts some other folk built that the repairer has ZERO CAD/CAM help with. The lathe sorta plays CMM first, lathe later.

    But enough "OT". All that demonstrates is that there were "several" ways to address a need.

    Better to research that for yourself. If even anyone gives a toss.


  13. #31
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    Rather like the threading system on the Hardinge HLV-H knock off I have. Victor 618esv

    Tom

  14. #32
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    The Termite says "Why? I've made no claim to personal expertise AT ALL. Simply contributed back what I have gathered up from research. And I DID that research. Some of it over just short of 60 years ago. Some not until after deciding to buy the HBX-360-BC far more recently.

    But, Termite! In another thread you say you were a "Union machinist" then, you say this, "I've made no claim to personal expertise AT ALL". Termite, what is the truth we are afraid of losing trust with your conflicting post!
    Really hoping you dont come up with another dangerous Stick your hands into a running drive motor to dress the commutator, we really depend on your 109yrs of experience.

    Another thing Termite, why compare machines that are no longer made to the EE that is still being made? Some experience would certainly be helpful on your part....now what union was that?

    Yes, the ELSR simply cuts power to the spindle using adjustable stops.
    Taking advantage of the dynamic braking, the ELSR is not needed for all threading operations where as the half nuts remain locked in, a little experience will make that clear. However, as was pointed out earlier, when higher speeds are desired to produce cleaner cut threads, the ELSR becomes more valuable.

    Wow, the Termite now has a spaghetti lathe!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Every body take note! you only get one meatball.


    '


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