Monarch 16cw questions

kiddcaprix · Jul 17, 2017

Hello all, My name is Adam. This weekend a very generous fellow by the name of Eric Richards handed off to me a beautiful 1943 Monarch 16"CW. I am so thrilled that she has fallen into my lap. The old girl had been sitting outside (covered) for quite some time. She will be going back to work soon. I also got the original tail stock and a 3 jaw chuck as well. He has a tool post and tooling for me also, I just have to dig it out of his barn. This beautiful lady came to me at no cost but only a condition of getting her back working again and treating her right. With that said, I have a few things to work out. The spindle lever brackets are all broke and will have to be welded and addressed. I am new to Monarchs but know of them so I will be learning as I go. She didn't seem to have a chip tray or coolant pump installed ever. Was that an option to not have one? Also, on the spindle lever, I don't have the support bracket or lever that attaches on the carriage. Being that this is only 30" between centers, would it of had one anyway? I have searched thru the posts on this forum and saw some links to manuals and brochures, but they were all broken and mostly 5+ years old. Does anyone have any pdfs that they would be willing to share on this machine? I would be very thankful. I will be asking and reading a lot in the upcoming months as I get her in the shop and fired up. Anybody know the original color? Thanks for any info that you can give. I appreciate it.

Regards,
Adam

dana gear · Jul 20, 2017

Check out Vintage Machinery they have some Monarch manuals/literature in there collection.
At 30 inches I don't think it would have had a carriage clutch, at least I have never seen them on the short units.
I seem to see lots of Monarch transmission levers broken right at the hinge point of the lever.
Most of the time there easy to repair ( I have seen the good the bad and the down right ugly repair jobs on these)
These machines are great lathes that with a little care will truly last for dam near ever.
There well worth the time spent to bring back to service life.

johnoder · Jul 21, 2017

If you would like a scan of the CW manual (something NOT at VM) just private message me your email address

kiddcaprix · Jul 28, 2017

Thanks for the replies. Appreciate it. I am in the process of cleaning some parts and working out a spot to put the old girl in her new place in the shop. I have a question about the tail stock if anyone can help. I have looked at the parts list exploded view (thank you BTW John Oder for the copy) but can not tell exactly how the thing comes apart. The tail stock was left under a tarp for about 5-8 years with the spindle all the way out (see attached pic). The screw is free of the spindle and stopped by the "Handwheel Bell" (#8 in the parts list). Is this a threaded bell? It looks to have a hole drilled perpendicular to the spindle axis on the bottom of the bell I may be able to put a drift in and un-screw it but I don't want to start hammering on anything until I understand the construction. Is it pressed in? I need to get the bell and screw out of the way so I can press the spindle out from the back. It's pretty minimal surface rust and should come right out. Just want to get some advice so I dont wreck anything. If anyone has any info to help, it will be much appreciated. Thanks.
-Adam

note the big 3 jaw Cushman I have to clean in the back ground.

jlkunka · Aug 13, 2018

Did you ever get the tailstock apart? I have the same issue, but the tailstock is all the way in. I agree the end bell must be threaded but the top hole isn't very big for something to torque against.

kiddcaprix · Sep 18, 2018

jlkunka,

Yeah, I managed to get the end bell off. I used a punch that fit in the hole nicely and gave it one decent hit with a dead blow and she broke free. It is threaded and came off easier than I thought. I had to take a hiatus from the rework for a while but I am back working on the old girl again. I need to press the spindle out of the housing and it will be totally broke down. I can get some pictures of the tail stock dismantled if that will help.

-Adam

gustafson · Sep 18, 2018

Just a few notes going back nearly 30 years when I went through my 12CK

Take the lid off[must weigh 80 pounds] clean the oil out, check the condition of the dogs. Gears will probably be fine. Clean the pump felt strainer

Check the brake and clutch action and condition of the brake cone.

get some penetrating oil on that tailstock ram, I would want to avoid a press. Will it move at all?

get oil on everything that wants oil over and over before you are near starting it.

I cannot remember if I could get the carriage oil pump out.

TDegenhart · Sep 18, 2018

I reworked a 12CK (1944). The two big areas I had to address were the apron oiling system and the oiling of the cross slide and carriage. Both were plugged. The apron oil pump in the 12CK is contained in a removable cup on the lower left side of the apron. The oil to the carriage and cross slide is coupled that a short length of copper tubing and coupling on the outside the apron above the carriage hand wheel. I recommend taking the carriage completely apart and clean it. The apron sump on mine was filled with junk. You will find under the cross slide a distribution box for oil to the various points, the front and rear ways and the cross slide. There are metering on each of the lines. These cannot be cleaned, they will need to be replaced if they are clogged. Each metering unit is marked for the metered amount. Don't get them mixed up. Same in the apron.
Replacement units are available and are not expensive, they are available through Bijur.

Tom

johnoder · Sep 18, 2018

Also, on the spindle lever, I don't have the support bracket or lever that attaches on the carriage

.

Probably had one. I say that because you can see the busted right hand bracket for the square control shaft still bolted to bottom of bearing block for right ends of lead screw and feed rod

I'll see if I can find the thread has some parts scans on that stuff I posted

Here you go

https://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/monarch-lathes/monarch-lathe-aa-1942-a-354829/

TDegenhart · Sep 18, 2018

I don't see where a clutch shaft terminates in the gear box.

Tom

johnoder · Sep 19, 2018

TDegenhart said:
I don't see where a clutch shaft terminates in the gear box.

Tom

It doesn't - it terminates in the blue gray gear box in the linked thread above - which is also missing - or at least cannot be seen in photo

kiddcaprix · Sep 19, 2018

John,

I do have the square control rod and the support bracket on the right of the lathe that is shown broken in the picture. I have to either forge/machine a new one, or try and weld the bracket back together. Should be fairly simple, the casting broke clean. The gear box you show pictured is the main problem. I thought I had all the pieces to the puzzle, but the casting broke into about 3 pieces and I am missing a big chunk that had the bearing journal in it. Unless somebody has that gear box casting sitting on a shelf somewhere, I am either going to build a machined box that does the same thing or make a casting of the one I have (use some clay or resin to fill the missing piece and make a mold of it). I am in the process of removing the main gear shaft so I can get the gear box oiler out. It is either plugged with decades of nastiness, or the o-rings are shot. Just need to get to it. I have a write up that a gentleman on this forum gave me of his endeavors on a 16CY. Really helpful info. After I get the oiler worker, then its on to the apron as Tom mentioned earlier in this post. Thanks for all the info. It is really helpful.

With the distance to centers being so short (30"), the guy I got this from thinks it may have started it's life on a navy ship. Would Monarch be able to run the serial number and know stuff like that? Would be awesome to have a piece of history like that if it were true. I doubt it, but would be cool to know.

Thanks,
Adam

johnoder · Sep 19, 2018

It's the simplest sort of direct drive miter gear box - your casting will likely be just fine

Used to be a SCOTT at Monarch - he told me all about my fall of '46 CW16 X 102 being bought new by Houston Power & Light for $5775. So mine was a "one owner"

jlkunka · Sep 19, 2018

kiddcaprix said:
Yeah, I managed to get the end bell off. .... I need to press the spindle out of the housing and it will be totally broke down. I can get some pictures of the tail stock dismantled if that will help.

-Adam

We got the quill moving without a press. Lots of Kroil and buzzing against the end with an impact gun (against a sacrificial aluminum plate). It will move bit by bit until it's free.

The Binder Clamp was fun - froze in place and nothing to grab. I see you removed the stud. BEFORE YOU MOVE THE QUILL, pack the cavity under the Binder Clamp with grease. We pumped it from a grease gun until it came up the clearance hole. Fit a wooden dowel or turn a steel/aluminum/brass rod to just fit the hole, ours was .813". Insert in hole, then sharp whacks with a hammer and the hydraulic pressure spikes will drive the plug up. Worked like a charm! We had to keep adding grease as the plug came up. Once the plug is almost free there is a scallop cut to fit the quill - that will become exposed and squirt a shot of grease onto your shirt, so stand to what would be the rear side of the tailstock.

Good luck!

kiddcaprix · Sep 20, 2018

That is some good advise there. I was wondering how to get that plug out. Will give that a try. Thanks. Last night I took the main shaft out to get to the oiler. Pretty glad I did. The sludge in the bottom of the case is almost an inch thick in places. The lathe sat outside for almost a decade under a tarp, and had one 5/8-16 cover plate hole exposed that allowed moisture into the case. Luckily the oiler worked fine once I removed the buildup on the pickup tube. It looks like there was some fabric screen on the end of the oiler?! It was none existent but there is a ring and a snap ring that held something there. Almost looks like fine mesh wool? Don't know if the oiler needs it or if I can find a replacement material that will work in its place. All the gears and clutches look awesome.

Also, I emailed Monarch to find out who bought this thing new and it went to Leland Electric in Dayton, Ohio. Pretty cool that they still have that info. Enjoy the sludge pics. I will post a pic of the post cleanup before I put the main shaft back in.

-Adam

jlkunka · Sep 20, 2018

kiddcaprix said:
That is some good advise there. I was wondering how to get that plug out. Will give that a try. Thanks. Last night I took the main shaft out to get to the oiler. Pretty glad I did. The sludge in the bottom of the case is almost an inch thick in places. The lathe sat outside for almost a decade under a tarp, and had one 5/8-16 cover plate hole exposed that allowed moisture into the case. Luckily the oiler worked fine once I removed the buildup on the pickup tube. It looks like there was some fabric screen on the end of the oiler?! It was none existent but there is a ring and a snap ring that held something there. Almost looks like fine mesh wool? Don't know if the oiler needs it or if I can find a replacement material that will work in its place. All the gears and clutches look awesome.

Since I don't see the oil pump, or some sort of cam to drive it, I assume it's on your bench. It would be great if you could post a couple pics of it before the main shaft goes back in, or how it's oriented once reinstalled... so I can know what I'm in for when I get to that point in the cleanup.

I plan on hooking up a pipe and hose to the case drain so that I can flush the inside out with a solvent/oil mixture... sort of like using the sump as its own parts cleaning tank. I have an unused parts cleaning brush ( the hollow kind with a hose connection) set aside for the task.

gustafson · Sep 20, 2018

Make sure you check the action on all the shift levers as they get sloppu and you cannot get to the parts once it is back together

kiddcaprix · Sep 20, 2018

A user by the name of 'ajclay' on this forum has a CY that he wrote a great breakdown and walk thru of the sequence I just went through. I pm'd him last year and got a copy of the document he put together. A huge thank you goes out to him for that work. Helped me out a great deal. The cam is on the big bull gear that would be all the way to the right when looking at the control side of the gear box. There is a ring with 3 SHCS holding it to the gear. That is the cam for the pump. The pump is held on with 3 bolts to the case and will only install one way. You will be able to see it quite easily when the main shaft is out of the way. I will get some pics tonight of the oiler and where it goes if you still want to see it.

kiddcaprix · Oct 2, 2018

If anyone wanted to see it, figured I'd post the cleanup pic. Checked all the control links and cleaned everything as much as I could. Check that the oil pump worked and cleaned all of the meters and added new filter felt. About 12 hours over 5 days (only get a couple of hours a night), 8 gallons of Kerosene and about 2 gallons of Mineral Spirits, numerous old tooth brushes, wire brushes of every kind, and filling my shop vac with all sorts of nasty, this is what I managed to get to...

Main shaft went in well and I will set the bearing preload once I forge some spanner wrenches for the main shaft nuts.

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