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Monarch EE -- looking for pricing / disposition guidance..

MetaKey

Plastic
Joined
Apr 5, 2018
Hello, newbie here..

I have a Monarch EE and some tooling that I am thinking of selling and I have no idea what these machines are worth these days. I see prices all over the map and most of those are asking prices, not final sale prices.

I'm hoping I can get some feedback on what the setup might be worth. Obviously, actual condition cannot be assessed with a few pictures -- I get that. But any sort of guidance will be welcome and will help me decide how to move forward..

MonarchEE.jpg

Many more pics available at the following web address (may be slow to load, lots of pics):

Empty Blue Sky - Monarch EE

Thank you for reading and best regards,
MetaKey
 
Don't know but I would think your DC drive may damage the DC motor. Usually the field and armature run on totally different voltages. That is why the motor generator unit has two generators. One developing 240-280V and the other 110V.
 
yup, prices are all over the map. I'm thinking yours it not the $30K garden variety. However, yours is nicely "tooled" and even though it is an early round dial variety (I believe) with a gutted drive It must be worth something like $5K.....what say you forum members?
 
Don't know but I would think your DC drive may damage the DC motor. Usually the field and armature run on totally different voltages. That is why the motor generator unit has two generators. One developing 240-280V and the other 110V.

Not yet clear which motor he has. A 1941 would probably have been the "inline exciter" MG unit.

Some of those (JLewis has one..) had 200-230 VDC fields rather than 115 VDC.

Odd, too the mention of not reversing. 10EE use Armature-reversing, AND NOT Field Reversing (lower current involved, but slower acting).

The Field supply - wotever and from wherever derived - does NOT want reversing at any time. Symptoms suggest the Armature and Field are paralleld/same source, ergo BOTH reverse, electrically, together, and.. do NOT reverse, physically!

Field source needs to be independent, not reversed. That is cheap and dead-easy, if not already provided for on a corner ofthe PWM drive's PCB.

PWM drives: Those CAN provide the nominal full 230 VDC off 230 VAC input where SCR types deliver only 180 VDC unless provided a boost transformer at input, but..

Most of those as are affordable (KB-Penta, and I have at least one such), rely on ability to keep a big fat capacitor charged, and do not fare well when the load is at or over 2 HP. Economics are less attractive above that point. Probably more a market-demand ==> sales volume issue than a technical one, but big, reliable, and durable, capacitors get expensive faster than bigger SCRs do, so..

Worse, Monarch/Reliance did not limit themselves to the nameplate's nominal 230 VDC Armature Voltage. Many measurements taken by more than a few folks evidence actual operation at 250-265 VDC. I run at ~ 275 VDC, peak. Motor doesn't seem to much mind, 'coz it spends very little time up there.

That "reserve", OTOH helps to stiffen RPM stability when in the Field Weakened zone - which is MOST of a 10EE's power range.

"More info" on the drive specifics, plus sorting the reversing issue (probably dead-easy), would be helpful so a seeker would be comfortable it did not need a re-do.

And yes - if not "finish the WHOLE job", at least get those paid-for new cross and compound feedcrews into place to reduce worry as to whether they are, in fact, the right ones, arent missing bushes, bearings, etc.. etc.

Even with ... all that sorted, AND a recycled crossfeed dial and handcrank?

If still the bed was not reground, saddle & TS were not re-fitted, spindle bearings were not replaced?

I would not expect what is so far but a basic cleanup to command much over $3,000-$4,000 with those biggies still on the "to do" list. IOW - it is still a "project", and not yet a solid chipmaker.

"Do nothing", expect to discount it another thousand or so to he who mindeth not tackling a greater level of uncertainty.

2CW
 
Just my two cents. a machine not running and apart has to be hugely discounted. Your location don't help either. I think you'd be lucky to get $3K.

You would make more selling all the smaller tooling parts on ebay. a parts machine will be worth only slightly less without this stuff.

Get it running and its over $5K even in your location.
 
Don't know but I would think your DC drive may damage the DC motor. Usually the field and armature run on totally different voltages. That is why the motor generator unit has two generators. One developing 240-280V and the other 110V.

Yup, good point. I should have provided more detail. The 240 VAC comes into the machine and feeds the PWM motor controller which feeds the armature and a 240 to 120 step down transformer. That, in turn, provides proper voltage for the field winding. So, yes, there are two power supplies in the box.

Best regards,
MetaKey
 
Not yet clear which motor he has. A 1941 would probably have been the "inline exciter" MG unit.

Some of those (JLewis has one..) had 200-230 VDC fields rather than 115 VDC.

Odd, too the mention of not reversing. 10EE use Armature-reversing, AND NOT Field Reversing (lower current involved, but slower acting).
.....
2CW

This is really interesting info -- thanks! I did the electrical work many years ago (seems like several lifetimes ago) and I don't remember that much detail at this point. I'll try to get some time set aside this week to dig into it again to see what I have.

OTOH, another poster indicated I might be ahead of the game by selling off the tooling on eBay and trying to sell the machine itself as a parts/project machine. That might make the most sense for me.

Along that line, the new cross slide and compound screws and nuts seem specific to this machine. Or, maybe this vintage machine? Monarch wanted the exact serial number so they could grind appropriate components..

Thanks for your info..

MetaKay
 
This is really interesting info -- thanks! I did the electrical work many years ago (seems like several lifetimes ago) and I don't remember that much detail at this point. I'll try to get some time set aside this week to dig into it again to see what I have.

OTOH, another poster indicated I might be ahead of the game by selling off the tooling on eBay and trying to sell the machine itself as a parts/project machine. That might make the most sense for me.

Along that line, the new cross slide and compound screws and nuts seem specific to this machine. Or, maybe this vintage machine? Monarch wanted the exact serial number so they could grind appropriate components..

Thanks for your info..

MetaKay

Monarch almost certanly nailed it, dead nuts. A purchaser is still going to feel better taking the remaining risks if those parts are IN PLACE and known-for-sure to be working properly.

From a good deal of prior knowledge shared here on PM, your machine - and my older one, ORDERED December 1941, not shipped until September of 1942 - were built in "interesting times".

Monarch had been filling high-priority orders to the Canadian Defense establishment - already in War Two since 1939. Pearl Harbor hit 7 December 1941 and the US War Department got into the prioritization business with all three feet. I'd guess it was easily 1943 before sliding priorities were cleared-out and what we might call "hybrids", overlaps, and underlaps of earlier and later 10EE were cleaned out.

Your one could have either a 115 VDC or a 220/230 "something" VDC Field on the motor.

"Selfie stick" and camera are the least backstrain way to get a foto of the motor nameplate.
Drive parts and wiring as well.

I have a short ton of their manuals here on disk, current and obsolete, can ID most brands and models pretty quickly and dig out the needfuls as to wiring and configuration or "commissioning" as some call it, of settings and options.

Shouldn't take very long to sort that reversing glitch.
 
Through what must be considered a series of miracles I have found a diagram that I drew out on 09 APR 2002. It's in Visio (which I no longer have) but Internet Explorer actually opened the thing and I did a screen grab of the diagram.

Anyway, here it is. Not sure if this is "as-built" or what I planned..

MonarchEE_Wiring.jpg

Two thoughts come to mind after reviewing the info you have provided:

1) My assessment that I am not the right guy for this project seems correct. It needs to be done right, and I don't think I know how to do it right or can devote the time to figure out how to do it right.

2) I am reminded of this diagram: xkcd: Circuit Diagram which is, perhaps, my as-built schematic. ;-)

Best Regards,
MetaKey
 
Through what must be considered a series of miracles I have found a diagram that I drew out on 09 APR 2002. It's in Visio (which I no longer have) but Internet Explorer actually opened the thing and I did a screen grab of the diagram.

Anyway, here it is. Not sure if this is "as-built" or what I planned..

View attachment 225269

Email me that - or just the text off the DC Drive used. I can't seem to get enough resolution to read it.

Two thoughts come to mind after reviewing the info you have provided:

1) My assessment that I am not the right guy for this project seems correct. It needs to be done right, and I don't think I know how to do it right or can devote the time to figure out how to do it right.
Nah.. dead-simple critters to wire. The hard stuff was done arredy by the DC Drive maker.

2) I am reminded of this diagram: xkcd: Circuit Diagram which is, perhaps, my as-built schematic. ;-)
That thing with all the squiggly resistor symbols North and East of the "arena"?

Could be an ignorant two-wire "conference bridge" old school analog telco days, not a joke after all. Easier done to better effect with 4-wire E&M, though.

Still have a leftover 16-button STE unit for those. AUTOVON / AUTODIN conversion contract we did for the CIA, DCA, and DIA Motherships back in the day.

Gawd that stuff is all soo "antique", and for so damned looong since... I don't yet feel like a Dinosaur meself, but seems they must have still walked the Earth back then when we still wore steel pots, not Kevlar bicycle helmets...

:)
 
Through what must be considered a series of miracles I have found a diagram that I drew out on 09 APR 2002. It's in Visio (which I no longer have) but Internet Explorer actually opened the thing and I did a screen grab of the diagram.

Anyway, here it is. Not sure if this is "as-built" or what I planned..

View attachment 225269

Two thoughts come to mind after reviewing the info you have provided:

1) My assessment that I am not the right guy for this project seems correct. It needs to be done right, and I don't think I know how to do it right or can devote the time to figure out how to do it right.

2) I am reminded of this diagram: xkcd: Circuit Diagram which is, perhaps, my as-built schematic. ;-)

Best Regards,
MetaKey
Yep the relays are wired wrong no matter which relay is on the same polarity is on the motor, the field is correct no need to change that circuit. On the reverse relay swap the two leads coming from the controller.
 
Monarch almost certanly nailed it, dead nuts. A purchaser is still going to feel better taking the remaining risks if those parts are IN PLACE and known-for-sure to be working properly.
...
Your one could have either a 115 VDC or a 220/230 "something" VDC Field on the motor.

"Selfie stick" and camera are the least backstrain way to get a foto of the motor nameplate.
Drive parts and wiring as well.

In the interests of completeness, I'm attaching a pic of the motor nameplate. But, (as has been pointed out to me later in the thread) I wired the relays wrong so no matter which direction I'm asking for I get the same polarity on the motor winding. DOH!

IMG_2372.jpg

BTW, I re-posted the diagram and it came through in a readable size the second time. First time I posted it as a .png and second time as a .jpg which worked better..

MetaKey
 
Yep the relays are wired wrong no matter which relay is on the same polarity is on the motor, the field is correct no need to change that circuit.

Good catch!

Meanwhile, just got the DC drive info. KBIC-225. 180 VDC output spec.

I have one. But all my Dee Cee motors but the 10EE OEM's ARE 180 VDC.

Presuming this 10EE still has the OEM "large frame" 3 HP 230 VDC Armature motor, this KB will make chips but... only at around the effectivness of a 2 HP-minus motor at low speed (BELOW "base" RPM, which require 230 VDC).

It has to go into "Field Weakening" waaay too early - even to hit the 690 RPM "base", which requires 230 VDC at full field. It will then fall on its nose in the (majority) field-weakened range a 10EE uses so much of.

No fix for it other than swapping to a 180 VDC motor.

Tested that, BTW. My one (5 HP Reliance RPM III Type TR) won't fit and still have room for the gearbox. 180 VDC motors use fatter wire than 230 VDC ones do, hence are big, heavy, fatbastards, and too bulky for 10EE spaces.

New DC drive goes on the completion list.

Eurotherm/Parker-SSD 514C-16 + full-isolation input boost transformer for single phase environment. Load-side 20 mH choke recommended as ripple filter.

Several DC drive choices in a 3 Phase environment. No boost required. Ripple filter less of a need.

2CW
 
And that pushes me over the top. Too much to do, too little time..

Thanks for all the replies and great info,
MetaKey

Well - if now you are balancing whole-hog vs part out, you might send a PM to "maynah" for an overview of how that goes and whether it is worth the effort.

Jeff parted-out a round-dial a while back. I have perhaps more of it by piece-count if not also value than any other single buyer, as I have two intact round dials to support.

The only parts still short here one set of upper and lower HS-end Cast Iron arse-skins.
 
MetaKey,

Very nice write up and photos on your web site!

Based on the field amps and rheostat listed on the motor data plate that you posted, I looks like you have a motor with a 240 VDC armature and a 115 VDC field, which is typical of all but the early inline exciter machines. Do you know if your DC controller can be setup for a 115 VDC field voltage? If you're pushing 180+ VDC into the field, you might damage it.

What's the serial number and build date for the machine?

Cal
 
Do you know if your DC controller can be setup for a 115 VDC field voltage? If you're pushing 180+ VDC into the field, you might damage it.

That would certainly be risky if there is no Field Idle / cutoff provision. And there may not be with a solid-state conversion.

Just as common seems to be strapping for 90 VDC and a bit off the 120 to neutral instead of the 240 legs That reduces torque, base RPM and below, Field Weakening "crossover" point and below as well.

The proper 115 VDC "hits the numbers" on the nameplate. So long as the Armature Voltage also hits ITS numbers.

Most DC Drives that do not also include Field Regulator option circuits simply offer a "naked" 4-W bridge off on one corner of PCB and - hopefully - heat-sink. No control of it. Not even any alarm monitoring.

Field LOSS (or Field too weak) needs to be managed by other circuitry that may no longer be there.

Doing all this well, with "clean" Field power, not rippling, and being able to set limits and alarms also, is why we've used full-featured but small SSD 1Q DC Drive Armature outputs to serve the needs of the Field Power "consumer".

That also covers the Field loss protection need wherein a Solid State conversion doesn't use the original DC panel and its protective relays. Basically it cannot use those even if it wanted to do.


2CW
 








 
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