What's new
What's new

Monarch EE: Oh no, not the single phase question again...

Zagato

Plastic
Joined
Aug 8, 2017
HI you Guys:
First posting to the forum, but I have tried to read up ahead of this inquiry.

I bought a 1943 motor generator 10 EE 15 years or so ago ( 20 ?) for my business.
Love it. It arrived dead & I had to learn about the MG system from a blurry FAX, but I fixed it.
Of course my Colchester at home seems primitive by comparison, so I have decided to finally upgrade to an EE in the home shop.

OK: 240 single phase at home.
So many options.

I have visited three VFD with a three phase motor conversions. None of them brake for threading, all three had the back gear gearbox removed. They coasted forever & none of them pulled above 1250 rpm.
Not great for low end torque. Quiet though !

I have tried a tube drive, & it seemed twitchy & ready to cause grief upon failure.

The hydraulic drives are fascinating, but rarely seen.

So, it looks like a MG style with either a rotary phase converter ( more noise on top of the MG system, just what my neighbors would enjoy. ) an EE converted to a three phase motor with a VFD, or the other option. PWM control of the original MG DC motor & gearbox. Huh.

Since the original MG units pull back the field voltage for higher speeds, would a DC controller just top out at 700 rpm ? Is there a unit that can DC control up to 2000rpm or so ?

I'd be interested in hearing your current opinions.
I'm on the fence and looking at several right now.

One I recently saw has a forlorn empty hole where the driveline was, with an old three phase motor in it.
Quiet, & maybe I can figure out how to program braking into the controller, but it kinda feels like buying a vintage Corvette with a Maytag washing machine motor in it.

It seems that the character is missing.

Let me know your thoughts.
I converted my industrial sewing machine to a DC stepper motor & it sure is nice to not have that motor drone away like a MG unit.

Tempting to have a quiet EE, but at what cost......
 
Have you run a 10EE with a motor/generator drive? I don't find mine to be objectionable and I have very sensitive hearing. I can easily hold a conversation with both my RPC and 10EE running.

If you want to make it quiet, try putting a better fan on the thing--that's where all the noise comes from. The 7.5 HP idler motor for my RPC is very quite since I removed the cheap plastic "fan" on the end. I use a squirrel cage fan to cool it if I'm going to be running it very long.

Cal
 
I know with my cheap VFD, it's a little harder to implement braking, but I do have some DC braking worked in now. Eventually, I will buy a better VFD and implement a braking resistor. Between the two, I don't know why threading couldn't be accomplished, especially with the addition of the backgear. That's my plan. I certainly understand that the DC motor has its merits, and maybe someday I'll go back to one, but I doubt it. It's just too easy and cheap to use AC.

That said, if you still have the original rheostats, why not use them to accomplish the field reduction as was done originally? From the reading I did before firmly deciding on a VFD and AC motor, it sure seems that if you are willing to spend the money on a supply that will get you the required DC voltage, you can still have your cake and eat it too.
 
Tempting to have a quiet EE, but at what cost......

BTDTGTTS and I am not alone. No mechanical modifications to the motor, gearbox, belting driveline required. All-New wiring and controls, only. Originals 100%recycled to assist some other Pilgrim. All modern, zero of the electrical fossils retained. Placement whereever you want them. Appearance as you prefer.

Works well, lasts a long time, is not rocket insemination - the hard parts came in a box built by others, and it is near-as-dammit even all spelled-out in the manual. Or at least - it is NOW:

http://www.practicalmachinist.com/v...-10ee-modular-332092-post2932496/#post2932496

Essentially the identical circuit, different boost transformer but similar KVA and voltage, as was used here for the '42 "Round Dial" of mine that had been an MG unit.

Even down to the option settings on the Parker-SSD drives.

- One MUST use a full-isolation boost transformer. Buck-Boost will not get it.

- One SHOULD use a ripple filter. BIG ONE.

And all of that is in the Eurotherm/Parker-SSD manuals.

Full RPM. And more. Plenty of power. More than OEM if desired. Great RPM range. More than OEM if desired. Braking and reversing? Faster than OEM, and adjustable. "4Q" AKA "regenerative" DC drives Just F(irmly) DO that s**t.

There have been others. Not many got the boost right even if they selected a DC Drive that could even HANDLE the boost a 230 VDC ++ motor needs. Fewer yet used the essential "ripple filter" the manual calls for - a seriously massive "choke" inductor betwen nasty SCR drive and "I-was-built-for-rotary-sourced-DC-DAMMIT!!!" motor.

Quiet? Did someone whisper "Quiet" ??

:)

If the tool is not in the cut, one is listening to the belts hiss and the roller bearings motate.

And not much else.

Engage gearing for threading or surfacing feed? Sound the same as they always have.

Power? Smooooooth Power? Wiiiiiiide raaaaaaaange Power?

Big F(ine) Grins.. Serious grins... S**t-Eating grins, even..

Dinosaur Current ... is what a 10EE was given when electro-hydraulic drive was not quite powerful enough.

Dinosaur Current ... grew to fill their Levi's. Genes. Not Jeans.

Just try pricing a direct Dee Cee replacement of the original 3 HP or 5 HP motors.
You have one already? Wealthy man! Very!

If not?

Eat yer heart out, Vee Eff Dee !!!

:D


If you HAVE NO OEM Dee Cee 10EE motor?

Here's the other "quiet" option:

http://www.practicalmachinist.com/v...ess-servo-motor-154967-post861757/#post861757

If you go that route, dig all of the info. Jerry re-did that original 2 KW installation, later. There were other "servo'ed" 10EE, too. Just not published in as much detail.

A 10EE owner has MANY choices of power. Proven ones.

We'd be interested - very interested - if you want to try adding a stepper to the menu.

Go for it !!! See if you can raise the bar.

Oh..costs?

I've put about six large into it. Testing, mostly. Destructive included. Even then, I had help. Spare motors, specifically.

Any of the proven ways? New parts, not scrounging? Under $3,000.
Decent scrounging skill, used-but-good? Roughly half that.

Any lesser spend needs also a ration of PBS. Pure Bullshit Luck.

Or .. one can restore what Monarch shipped, MG usually the least-cost.

:)
 
Last edited:

+1

Several "Steelman-Haas" conversions have been done and documented on PM since Peter published the plan.

And not to put tooo fine a point on it, but, as with reducing noise intrusion of air compressors, the MG may be removed from the belly of the 10EE and placed the other side of a sound deadened partition for the modest expense of a wiring run.

Adding ballast to the former MG 'garage' recommended. A 10EE is top-heavy as it is, taking the MG out makes it more so.
 
My MG isn't too loud. Sound at startup is actually really cool. Sounds legit, man!

They DO turn a bit more of the incoming power into sound and heat than a Solid State drive, but WTH?

Few, if any, are now, or ever will again BE, in 24 X 6 3 shifts a day wartime-style production, so there is no ECONOMIC justification for conversion. Not on electricity save at least. Might take 100 years or more of savings to pay that back.

With restoration of every one of the original Monarch methods of powering a 10EE, plus several more that Monarch Machine Tool never did now so well documented by members of the community, there are plenty of choices.

Mostly, we do these things the way we do simply because we can.
 
My post is heresy to some ...
but it is also by far the best option technically, and the best bang/buck.

Use a good import ac brushless servo, and a timing belt drive of HTD8-30, ie 8 mm profile (for torque and positioning at low speeds) and 30 mm width (for rigidity and strength).

I did this on my 12x lathe.
Incredible results.

Explanation.
Mine is a 2.5 kW cont servo, 220V.
Would work directly in the US (I am in Spain).
I drive it at 1:3, 24 teeth to 72 teeth, the pulley is at spindle end).
Taperlock pulleys, industrial.

2.5 kW servo has 30 Nm peak torque, 3 secs. 10 Nm torque, continuous. 3000 rpm, cont.
So 90 Nm peak torque.
10.000 count encoder, so 1x3x10.000 = 30.000 steps indexing == 0.01 degrees.
Examples.
A Haas ST10, of 11 kW, has peak torque of 102 Nm at 1200 rpm.
I have about the same torque at all revs 0-1000 rpm at spindle.
For most revs, I have more effective torque than the Haas.

If I needed higher rpm, I could have a 1:2 pulley alongside (or 1:1).

The servo is near silent.
Belt drive has slight noise.
The servo will last approx forever as an industrial brushless solution meant to run 24x7 for 10-15.000 hours.

The servo has vastly more torque than any reasonable solution,
is more quiet,
has vastly better stability in rpm => surface finish,
runs cool.
Cons.
The setup is easy, if somewhat laborious and not free.

Large taperlock pulleys etc cost == 250€ with belts etc.
I used 30x20 mm tool steel frame members, and the mount is == 50 kg in mass.

You want to make a mount that does not bend significantly under 10 kW / 100 kgf forces.
Motor mount plate is == 200x300x20 mm tool steel. Aka rigid.
A rigid mount makes everything work much better, for 100€ extra cost in materials aka nothing.

My experiences:
The huge extra torque at 100% rpm 0 to max is wonderful.
I had more power than I needed.
I thought the torque was inconsequential.
I was wrong.
The torque is ABSOLUTELY EXCELLENT.

Low noise is great.
Any rpm and guaranteed perfect speed in rpm / css is fantastic.
As expected.

I use a cnc controller - but this is not necessary.
The same servo can use a pot for rpm,
(analogue 0-10V,
or step/dir.
I use step/dir with an industrial-type hw controller and sw backend.)

My firm opinion after using a vfd and 3-phase motor, on the Bp, is that the servo is *vastly* better.

Also, as You can see, a 2.5 kW servo is pretty powerful.
You might want a bigger one, perhaps, on a Monarch. Or not.
My experience equates a 2.5 kW servo to about a VFD driven 3-phase tool at 5 -8 kW in not-production use.

Ie the HAAS 11 kW will absolutely move more metal .. at 1200 rpm or so, by 3-4x.
It is bigger and quite a lot more powerful.

My re: is for an ac servo, from Your favourite import supplier.
It is easy, not expensive, wont fail, lasts, quiet, gobs of torque, no more belt changes ever.
A 1.5 kW AC brushless servo kit like mine == 1500€ in the EU, 1200€ without the VAT tax.
A 2.5 kW likely about 1800-2000€.

Otoh..
A used 3 phase motor == couple hundred, vfd same, say maybe 5-700$ total.
And at that price, probably, you could get maybe 10 kW if you have sufficient 3-phase power.
Much cheaper, and a much bigger motor will deliver all the torque you want.

3-phase motors cost very little, and do not get more expensive with more power, unless name-brand frontline stuff.
Burden Surpluscenter usa used to have 10-50-100 Hp motors between about 1000 - 1500$ iirc.

Imo, ime..
The VFD is very good.
The servo is vastly better - more expensive.
The original was a product of its times. Very good, but not worth spending hours or $ on- unless it runs 100% as-is. Imho.
All in context of use, only.
 
My post is heresy to some ...
but it is also by far the best option technically, and the best bang/buck.

Use a good import ac brushless servo,

We can like servos.

We like choices even more.

We like LOW COST, LOW HASSLE and durable choices even more yet.

What is there to NOT like?

:D

BTW:
The original was a product of its times. Very good, but not worth spending hours or $ on- unless it runs 100% as-is. Imho.

You've simply not been paying attention if you were not already aware just how close to a modern servo the OEM 3-HP "large frame" Reliance motors actually were.

Just try buying a brand-new "Type T" of the same performance.

USD $12,000 might do that. Or it might be only a deposit. Got one, already? Keep one already!!!!

VFD and servos are on our list because they can be the "cheaper seats".
Not because they are necessarily even as good, let alone "better".
 
Trust me, I've hooked up VFD's on lesser lathes, as well as one of my BP's. I was soooo ready to do the same on my 10EE; junk the complicated-to-me MG drive, etc....but still I gave what members here suggested a try (give the exciter a zap, change brushes, clean commutator) and the MG drive turned out way better than I could imagine.

Fire-up sounds like "Atomic Age music", too.
 
the MG drive turned out way better than I could imagine.

Yup. DC sourced from "rotating power". Smooth. Really smooth. Just put a 'scope on that.

Next nearest thing for "smooth" to a monster carbon-pile slide rheostat off a nineteen-ought-three double-decker electric tram and a battery bank the size of a refrigerator.

Reliance's "Type T" winding was no ordinary Dee Cee motor. Optimized for "smooth".

Elevator (lift) motors, mostly. Lathes, not so much.
 
Wow. You Guys are Heros.
In the time it took for my question to get posted here, I picked up my second EE.
It seemed the right person selling the right lathe, so I bought it. Should be here in a few weeks.
So:
The EE at my workshop is an all original motor generator, & I love it's response. It howls a bit, but Cal pointed to changing the fan to quiet it down.
It's in an industrial shop with 3 phase, so noise & power aren't an issue.
The one I just bought is an AC motor conversion retaining the gearbox & using a VFD.
I'll run it off of household 220 single phase, keep it quiet for the neighbors, & see how it performs & brakes.
It just seems a shame to not keep that gorgeous giant DC motor & use modern controls to tame it.
Well, I'm learning with my wallet here.

Just home on a lunch break, so not enough time to digest all the knowledge above right now.
Back to work to make chips, & then come home to review the great info you guys have submitted.
Thanks so much for your insights.

When I bought my first EE ( dead ) there wasn't an internet to speak of.
I diagnosed the MG system from a blurry FAX I paid good money for.
To be able to be on a forum like this is a miracle.
Still open to more observations,
thanks again !
 
You can have braking with a vfd. You just have to have the right one. with external braking resistors. My 10EE has a vfd and accelerates from 0-2800 in 2 seconds and decelerates from 2800-0 rpm in 1 second with a 6" set true chuck with adaptor plate and a 1"x10" steel bar in it. When in back gear it stops within 1/4 of a turn at 300 rpm and almost immediately at 100 rpm. Some people say you lose torque at low rpm with the vfd setup. If you retain the back gear it's not true. I have forgotten the spindle lock on and the motor will smoke the double b belts at 5hz. I'm not saying convert your lathe. But if you do it can be done right I even retained the elsr function on my lathe and the original speed adjust knob. Bob
 
You can have braking with a vfd. You just have to have the right one. with external braking resistors. My 10EE has a vfd and accelerates from 0-2800 in 2 seconds and decelerates from 2800-0 rpm in 1 second with a 6" set true chuck with adaptor plate and a 1"x10" steel bar in it. When in back gear it stops within 1/4 of a turn at 300 rpm and almost immediately at 100 rpm. Some people say you lose torque at low rpm with the vfd setup. If you retain the back gear it's not true. I have forgotten the spindle lock on and the motor will smoke the double b belts at 5hz. I'm not saying convert your lathe. But if you do it can be done right I even retained the elsr function on my lathe and the original speed adjust knob. Bob

"A" section belts, not "B" usually. No need of reduction gear to creep/slip those. Wouldn't want to push them further, but guess I could afford another test.

Reduction gear is there more to allow the motor to stay up in a more stable and cheaply regulated range than for extra gobs of torque. Part of the reason it feeds INTO the belts instead of taking off FROM them as a true "back" gear would do.

Regulation kept improving, was not great compared to modern solid-state drives - 3-Phase-only Monarch Sidney Solid State drive era onward.

And of course, as the VFD'ed motor actually NEEDS the reduction gearing, torque WAS missing at the output shaft of the motor itself. Good VFD, with resolver feedback especially, claims full torque right down to locked-rotor or near-as-dammit.

That's righteous enough.

Dee Cee motor can deliver a MULTIPLE of 2, 4, 6, even 9 times rated torque off locked rotor, given the Voltage for it. Usually DOES deliver two-times nameplate just off the back of essentially zero CEMF.

Cannot possibly "slip", after all. Move the load or die trying unless upstream protection trips-out first.

That's probably a sin, rather than righteous, but it surely works well for not often needing the noise of reduction gearing.

:)
 
Wow. That sounds great. I just bought my new EE ( 1953 ) yesterday . It has a TICO Westinghouse controller, & I studied the mfg manual before I bought the lathe. It looks like there is adjustable braking, although the current owner never discovered it.
It will be interesting to compare it to my MG drive at work. At least the Guy went through the effort to keep the gearbox in the system. Your results are impressive. Let's see what I get when it arrives !
 
By the way, the above quote was meant as a reply to vettebob. Still learning how to navigate this forum.
 
Yup. The one in my shop is an MG and it's kinda loud. I've never heard another one in person, so I don't have a reference. It also takes awhile to spin up on the induction motor & groans while doing it. I'll stopwatch the start up time at the shop tomorrow, & post the result for reference. Maybe that one is a bit off song & I never knew it.
\Also: Disconnecting the original fan, & having a blower motor on a switch ( or thermo switch ) sounds like a good idea. Unfortunately my shop EE is stuck in a crowded corner & almost impossible to access the internals.
Thanks for the observations.
 
Again, this above reply was meant for Cals early observations. Hmm. If I can run a lathe I should be able to figure out how to post comments in the appropriate area...
 








 
Back
Top