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Mounting a 5C Lever Collet Closer on a 10EE

Rick Kruger

Aluminum
Joined
Aug 24, 2002
Location
Halfway, OR
What sort of help are you looking for? I've made 5C fixtures for my 10EE and could pass along info if I knew what was desired. Maybe start a new thread with a particular question?

Bringing this over from another thread.

I have a recently acquired a nicely restored 1946 10EE. I have this lathe because my beautifly restored pre-WWII Rivett 1020 took a faceplant during moving and is in storage awaiting repairs. Nothing major, thankfully.

For the 10EE, I have a Hardinge SJGREN 5C speed collet chuck, but I don't like it. It seems slow and clunky and I don't like the sound of the closing wheel rattling during use. I was thinking of getting a Bison 5C Set-Tru Collet Chuck, but I am concerned that it will seem slow and both take up room on the spindle.

I partially learned lathe work on a Monarch 10EC (chucker) that had a Royal 5C Lever Closer. We'd release a turned part and insert a new one while the machine was running. I don't do that now, but I love the positive closing action and I feel like it positions/holds the parts more positively and consistently.

So, I want to find out what it would take to mount a lever closer on this 10EE. Attached are photos of the rear end of my 10EE and some of what I have for the Royal lever closer that has been mounted on the Rivett. I could pirate that closer from the Rivett, but really don't want to. I was planning on putting some big bucks into the Bison chuck, so am willing to put it into a lever closer if it can be made to work. If I were to use the existing closer, I'd need a longer tube.

Rick
 

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Bringing this over from another thread.

I have a recently acquired a nicely restored 1946 10EE. I have this lathe because my beautifly restored pre-WWII Rivett 1020 took a faceplant during moving and is in storage awaiting repairs. Nothing major, thankfully.

For the 10EE, I have a Hardinge SJGREN 5C speed collet chuck, but I don't like it. It seems slow and clunky and I don't like the sound of the closing wheel rattling during use. I was thinking of getting a Bison 5C Set-Tru Collet Chuck, but I am concerned that it will seem slow and both take up room on the spindle.

I partially learned lathe work on a Monarch 10EC (chucker) that had a Royal 5C Lever Closer. We'd release a turned part and insert a new one while the machine was running. I don't do that now, but I love the positive closing action and I feel like it positions/holds the parts more positively and consistently.

So, I want to find out what it would take to mount a lever closer on this 10EE. Attached are photos of the rear end of my 10EE and some of what I have for the Royal lever closer that has been mounted on the Rivett. I could pirate that closer from the Rivett, but really don't want to. I was planning on putting some big bucks into the Bison chuck, so am willing to put it into a lever closer if it can be made to work. If I were to use the existing closer, I'd need a longer tube.

Rick

Well if you had it on the Rivett you know what the link and anchor point are all about. Make a hub to hold the lock ring to the spindle. Draw tube is easy as well just make a piece that will screw into the tube and thread the other end to fit the 5c thread, dead easy actually.
 
Well if you had it on the Rivett you know what the link and anchor point are all about. Make a hub to hold the lock ring to the spindle. Draw tube is easy as well just make a piece that will screw into the tube and thread the other end to fit the 5c thread, dead easy actually.

Yes, that is in part of why I included info about the Rivett. Tube is not a problem. With the Rivett, it was all open and it was a threaded mount. Easy Peasy. Monarch situation is much tighter. Much less room, at least with the stock rear cover. First, there is very little space between the cover and the spindle. Second, the cover is not a positive positioning unit. It shifts with pressure. It moves at least a 16th of an inch. So, I'm not clear on how I would mount the anchor point for the lever closer. With the Rivett, the closer anchor was mounted to part of the headstock, not a removable cover.

Rick
 
With the Rivett, the closer anchor was mounted to part of the headstock, not a removable cover.

Since you haven't bought anything yet, do not want to migrate the Royal off the Rivett, and have a decent budget, why not look around for a front-lever, such as a Hardinge "loop" closer. I'd recommend 2J rather than 5C as well.

Those mount to the D1-3. The toggle anchor clamps to the bed, up close to the HS.

NO DRAWTUBE is a nice plus, given the stingy spindle-bore rations of a 10EE.

I also have Sjogren's, 2J as well.

For 5C, worth having, even if not preferred use here, I have two key-cranker nose-closers, an integral D1-3 mount and plain plate mount for use in the 4-J for as on centre as I care to mess with, ELSE intentionally offset from centre. Neither drawtube nor anchor mount on those.

They are slow to use, work-cycle-wise, but low-cost, and relatively fast to swap for a chuck, faceplate, etc. AND... one can pull such with a workpiece still in them for milling, cross-drilling, grinding, or other ops, trust the D1-3 to hold damned good repeatability on re-mounting.

FWIW-not-much-dept - I HAD "most of" a Royal drawtube & lever set.

Gave it away for the above solution(s) and 2J collets rather than make/modify a drawtube and fab an anchor for the rear toggle.

2CW
 
It sounds like you're pretty well set on a lever operated collet closer, so I'll restrict my suggestions to those.

Monarchist seems to have covered one I wouldn't have thought of but there are others. One is the Pratt Burnerd "Multisize" chuck that mounts on the spindle face with the lever working against a mount on the bed. I have one and have used it but it's not my preferred solution, kind of a PITA to mount and doesn't have the flexibility of the 5C collets. My PB collets are EC and while a dozen collets cover the range from 1/16 to 1 1/2 round and hex, square collets are rare and expensive and there is no option for anything like an emergency collet. On the other hand each collet is not terribly sensitive to stock diameter variation as a 5C can be.

The Monarch supplied lever operated closer is nice but needs to have the pivot mounted on the back of the headstock. Mounting pads were standard sometime after mine was made, so I've put off mounting mine (yours likely won't have it either). There's also a change to the outboard end of the spindle so the draw assembly can mount, it can be made from a standard gear.

Aside: you might look at pneumatic collet closers - since I was on the PB site I'll use them as an example: ATL206-5CD3 Spindle mount, no draw tube, very fast work change and can be mounted and removed easily. You pay for all that - looks to be near $3K.
 
It sounds like you're pretty well set on a lever operated collet closer, so I'll restrict my suggestions to those.

Thanks for all the great info, guys. I was not aware of all those alternatives, so I should consider them. One factor is that I have a nearly complete rack of round 5C collets, plus a good assortment of hex and square collets as well as pot-chuck collets. These all came out of my father's shop when we closed it after his passing.

I think I should re-evaluate using the Sjogren speed collet chuck that I have. I am doing almost zero production work, so work cycle speed really isn't much of an issue. The only production work I have is facing the nibs off of about 800 8-32 set screws for a mandrel tool that I have the parts for by a CNC shop. Each mandrel uses four screws.

Rick
 
I think I should re-evaluate using the Sjogren speed collet chuck that I have. I am doing almost zero production work, so work cycle speed really isn't much of an issue. The only production work I have is facing the nibs off of about 800 8-32 set screws for a mandrel tool that I have the parts for by a CNC shop. Each mandrel uses four screws.

800? That's a lot of cycling with the Sjogren - lock the spindle, loosen the Sjogren, change part, tighten the Sjogren and unlock the spindle. A lever closer would be faster, almost as fast as the lever would be a key operated chuck (I have one for the Pratt Burnerd MC collets and another for the 5C - a Bison) using a screw gun to drive the key.

Another thought - make a little threaded pot chuck for a 3-jaw, something like a 5C E collet threaded 8-32. You could tweak it until you could get the screw in&out faster than you can with the collet setup that you have. Use a screw gun to loosen/tighten the chuck and you could have these done pretty quickly.
 
I think I should re-evaluate using the Sjogren speed collet chuck that I have. I am doing almost zero production work, so work cycle speed really isn't much of an issue. The only production work I have is facing the nibs off of about 800 8-32 set screws for a mandrel tool that I have the parts for by a CNC shop. Each mandrel uses four screws.

Rick


800? That's a lot of cycling with the Sjogren - lock the spindle, loosen the Sjogren, change part, tighten the Sjogren and unlock the spindle. A lever closer would be faster, almost as fast as the lever would be a key operated chuck (I have one for the Pratt Burnerd MC collets and another for the 5C - a Bison) using a screw gun to drive the key.

Another thought - make a little threaded pot chuck for a 3-jaw, something like a 5C E collet threaded 8-32. You could tweak it until you could get the screw in&out faster than you can with the collet setup that you have. Use a screw gun to loosen/tighten the chuck and you could have these done pretty quickly.

Yes, that is a lot of cycling and I thought better of it. First my number was off. Only three set screws are needed, so only 600. ;) Further, I enjoy creative machining, not standing in front of a machine for hours doing repetitive operations. I'm too old and my legs can't take it like they used to. Last time I did these screws it was on the Rivett using the lever closer and the number was only 70.

I had not looked very hard for flat pointed set screws (don't recall seeing them at McMaster's which is my go to place.) Did a search and found them at Fastenal, Haven't tried them before or these screws so I orders a small batch to see if they'll do the trick.

I've been eyeing that Bison Set-Tru 5C collet chuck for a long time. I may just get it and maybe sell the Sjogren. It has a bit of surface rust which could be removed.

Rick
 
I had not looked very hard for flat pointed set screws (don't recall seeing them at McMaster's which is my go to place.) Did a search and found them at Fastenal, Haven't tried them before or these screws so I orders a small batch to see if they'll do the trick.

Far be it for me to discourage the purchase of a new tool but 600 new flat point 8-32 setscrews isn't going to run more than $100. I don't know where you value your time but even at $25/hr you'd have to be hitting 3/minute to beat the new price. I'd just buy the screws.

I wouldn't be happy standing in front of the lathe for 6+ hours - I also need to point out that a 10EE isn't designed for a *lot* of on/off cycles for the stress on the braking resistor - it'll overheat (so you have an out). I can't recall where in the documentation I read that last point but it was out there.
 
... Second, the cover is not a positive positioning unit. It shifts with pressure. It moves at least a 16th of an inch. So, I'm not clear on how I would mount the anchor point for the lever closer. With the Rivett, the closer anchor was mounted to part of the headstock, not a removable cover.

Rick
Some 10EEs with factory installed lever-operated collet closers had a special 2-piece cover in place of the upper cover. The top cover had an attached casting for the closer's pivot and had locating dowel pins so that is was not free to shift around. The other half of the special cover was removable to allow access to the lubrication points and to the end gears without having to disturb the collet closer. Others 10EEs had a cast arm fastened to the back of the headstock that reached around the standard 1-piece cover and attached to the closer's linkage. IIRC, the former cover system worked with the Monarch-designed collet closer and the later with the Royal-style closers.

Cal
 
Good luck finding a loose monarch native lever closer in the Wild off a lathe. I have 2, one on a Manufacturing turret lathe, the other scavenged from a 10ee tracer. It’s a lot of work to mount them.
 
It sounds like you're pretty well set on a lever operated collet closer, so I'll restrict my suggestions to those.

Monarchist seems to have covered one I wouldn't have thought of but there are others. One is the Pratt Burnerd "Multisize" chuck that mounts on the spindle face with the lever working against a mount on the bed.
I didn't think to mention those. I have one, with a full set of the Multisize collets, but now plan to put it onto the scantily-clad Cazeneuve HBX-360-BC instead of the over-colleted-already 10EE (5C, 2J, Rubberflex, ER40, ER20).

Very similar in concept, collet sizes, and clamping range to a Jacob's 9XX RubberFlex with some major differences:

- Wedge-Blade count is "regular", all sizes, so hex stock is a native capability as well as round.

- Wedge-blades cannot tilt as Rubberflex can sometimes do when pushed too hard, and there is no rubber bond to fail.

- They are rebuildable by disassembly and careful grinding. RubberFlex, not so much.

- Multisize can have fast cycle time. RubberFlex, not so much.

P-B ceased making the lever-operated ones "a while" ago, now supply only key-operated. Used lever-closers - IF you can find one - will probably need a rebuild. Mine could surely use such.

W/R 10EE and its D1-3, backmount P-B's sizes start at D1-4, D1-3 is no longer showing in the catalog. Truth - I'm not sure it ever did, mine being a D1-4 that would have needed more finesse to adapt to a 10EE than it will to adapt to the oddball, but larger, Cazeneuve mount.
 
Far be it for me to discourage the purchase of a new tool but 600 new flat point 8-32 setscrews isn't going to run more than $100. I don't know where you value your time but even at $25/hr you'd have to be hitting 3/minute to beat the new price. I'd just buy the screws.

I wouldn't be happy standing in front of the lathe for 6+ hours - I also need to point out that a 10EE isn't designed for a *lot* of on/off cycles for the stress on the braking resistor - it'll overheat (so you have an out). I can't recall where in the documentation I read that last point but it was out there.

100 1/8" and 200 3/16" > $26 including shipping. No brainer. I just had not looked for them hard enough before. If I like these on the mandrel, I'll order more.

Rick
 
I didn't think to mention those. I have one, with a full set of the Multisize collets, but now plan to put it onto the scantily-clad Cazeneuve HBX-360-BC instead of the over-colleted-already 10EE (5C, 2J, Rubberflex, ER40, ER20).

Very similar in concept, collet sizes, and clamping range to a Jacob's 9XX RubberFlex with some major differences:

- Wedge-Blade count is "regular", all sizes, so hex stock is a native capability as well as round.

- Wedge-blades cannot tilt as Rubberflex can sometimes do when pushed too hard, and there is no rubber bond to fail.

- They are rebuildable by disassembly and careful grinding. RubberFlex, not so much.

- Multisize can have fast cycle time. RubberFlex, not so much.

P-B ceased making the lever-operated ones "a while" ago, now supply only key-operated. Used lever-closers - IF you can find one - will probably need a rebuild. Mine could surely use such.

W/R 10EE and its D1-3, backmount P-B's sizes start at D1-4, D1-3 is no longer showing in the catalog. Truth - I'm not sure it ever did, mine being a D1-4 that would have needed more finesse to adapt to a 10EE than it will to adapt to the oddball, but larger, Cazeneuve mount.

Pratt Burnerd's 2015 catalogue available here: http://www.prattburnerd.com/pdf files/PBA 2015 Catalog-website.pdf shows the KC15 Multisize Collet Chuck available with a D1-3" mount, among several other options (see page 76). It could also be had with a plain back (PB says "Adapter Recess") so you could mount it with about any sort of backplate yourself. In 2009 I bought one of these new with the D1-3" mount for my 10EE. What I received from Pratt Burnerd was, well, the "Adapter Recess" model mounted on a D1-3" backplate.

David
 
Far be it for me to discourage the purchase of a new tool but 600 new flat point 8-32 setscrews isn't going to run more than $100. I don't know where you value your time but even at $25/hr you'd have to be hitting 3/minute to beat the new price. I'd just buy the screws.

This discussion has given me my first real incentive to revive the Rivett and get it moved here to where I now live. A little over a year ago, I moved 350 miles in Oregon (which is nearly border to border) to be near my granddaughter. I bought a new house with a finished, insulated 2-car garage. I expected I would still need to build additional shop space to house my machines and still be able to park my car in the garage during winter (-16 F here last winter - I know that is sun-tanning weather to some, but it is extreme for me).

In the course of getting the Rivett moved, it got faceplanted. Surprisingly little damage to the operating functions, but the original cabinet drawers and doors took the beating. Still, the feeds and threading controls is difficult to move so the entire headstock and feeds/speeds gear train must be removed to get at the area were the damage occurred. I mothballed it as I was deep into moving and the opportunity to get the 10EE that I have came up. I jumped at it. I wasn't sure that I wanted to get back into the Rivett and the new-to-me 10EE would handle anything the Rivett could. Or so I thought.

Bigger issue than just having a second significant machine tool that would be used only occasionally is having the space to house it. It is looking less likely that I'll be able to or want to build more shop space in the near future, so having a place to put it weighs against being able to park my car in the garage.

Rick
 
I didn't think to mention those. I have one, with a full set of the Multisize collets, but now plan to put it onto the scantily-clad Cazeneuve HBX-360-BC instead of the over-colleted-already 10EE (5C, 2J, Rubberflex, ER40, ER20).

Very similar in concept, collet sizes, and clamping range to a Jacob's 9XX RubberFlex with some major differences:

- Wedge-Blade count is "regular", all sizes, so hex stock is a native capability as well as round.

- Wedge-blades cannot tilt as Rubberflex can sometimes do when pushed too hard, and there is no rubber bond to fail.

- They are rebuildable by disassembly and careful grinding. RubberFlex, not so much.

- Multisize can have fast cycle time. RubberFlex, not so much.

I have the Pratt Burnerd EC size (I might have said MC earlier) chucks - the key operated KC15 (still looking for a key - the Jacobs K5 is a poor substitute) and the lever operated LC15. I also have the Jacobs equivalents - 91 (wheel), 92 (lever) and 96 (still looking for the Jacobs KL96 key). The PB versions are a lot better as the leaves in the collet tend to grip better on short pieces. The Jacobs RubberFlex collets need a backer in the collet if the part doesn't make it better than 50% through the collet. You might be able to get a better grip with the Jacobs 91 if you follow the instructions - most folks just wheel it in when the instructions suggest hammering with the wheel.

(yeah, I'm a tooling whore. I spent way too much time compiling code and running analysis where I had plenty of free time to browse eBay and found many a deal (like $0.50 for a 10EE faceplate). In addition to the above I also have mostly complete 5C collet sets (including the 2-6" pot chucks and extended depth versions) with several spindle nose and Sjogren chucks, Cushman 115 and 215 collets and chucks (even collet blocks for the 215 set), 2J collets and chucks (3 of them). I did sell the 4NS collets and nose, so I'm not a complete whore.)
 
I have some options for you: if you are looking for a Pratt Bernard lever-operated d1-3 chuck, one of my friends recently sold his 10EE and still has a lot of the tooling, including one of these, complete with collets. I can put you in touch with him if you send me a PM. Second option is that I have an end cover for a 10EE that is cast iron and bolts in place, so you can mount a Royal or if you can find one a Monarch collet closer. The cover is missing the circular mount with the hinge for the Monarch collet closer, and it does not include the middle cover that goes from the top cover down to the lower cover, but it will work. $35 plus shipping. The shipping will cost more than that.

I also have a lever from a Litton Q-lathe, which is a pretty good copy of the Monarch design, here are a couple pictures that show one installed on the Q lathe (which is available too!):

IMG_0934.jpgIMG_0929.jpg
 
(yeah, I'm a tooling whore. I spent way too much time compiling code and running analysis where I had plenty of free time to browse eBay and found many a deal (like $0.50 for a 10EE faceplate). In addition to the above I also have mostly complete 5C collet sets (including the 2-6" pot chucks and extended depth versions) with several spindle nose and Sjogren chucks, Cushman 115 and 215 collets and chucks (even collet blocks for the 215 set), 2J collets and chucks (3 of them). I did sell the 4NS collets and nose, so I'm not a complete whore.)

I resemble that as well. I love the D1-3 2J spindle mount collet chuck. I have two of them for the 10EE and one that is mounted on a plate for use on the mill, as well as a 2J collet block with octagonal sides. I've collected a full set of collets by 1/64" and a full set of metric collets by .5mm, plus hexes and squares and collet stops. I have a full set of 5C collets as well, D1-3 5C collet closers for various pot chuck sizes, a Rubberflex with collets and backers. I sold the Sjogren D1-3 2J lever operated spindle chuck, the attachment to the bed was too much work since I change from collet to chuck fairly often. Similarly I sold the PB 16 D1-6 chuck and collets since I never found a D1-3 chuck for them and have no room left in the shop for a D1-6 lathe.
 
I have some options for you: if you are looking for a Pratt Bernard lever-operated d1-3 chuck, one of my friends recently sold his 10EE and still has a lot of the tooling, including one of these, complete with collets. I can put you in touch with him if you send me a PM. Second option is that I have an end cover for a 10EE that is cast iron and bolts in place, so you can mount a Royal or if you can find one a Monarch collet closer. The cover is missing the circular mount with the hinge for the Monarch collet closer, and it does not include the middle cover that goes from the top cover down to the lower cover, but it will work. $35 plus shipping. The shipping will cost more than that.

Thanks. I PM'd you with my personal email.

In regard to the 10EE cover, could you please post some photos, as I don't get it about the top, middle and lower cover. My 10EE cover is aluminum. It seems beefy enough to mount a closer link to, and I can see how I could make some hard mounts to lock it to the headstock. But then, I wonder how much that shifting matters. It shifts front/back about 1/16" which I think the link mount should be able to accommodate. The cover does not move at all left/right.

Rick
 








 
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