Multi Fix Tool Holder System

Jim Allen here in Kuwait: I am struggling with a couple issues associated with the 40 position Multi Fix tool Holders. First is what is the best system size for the 10EE machine.
I believe there are several sizes that would fit on the machine, however one has to be the best fit for general machine work on the 10ee. Any ideas or experiences would be most appriciated.

Second question: Has anyone experienced the threading tools in the multifix system? There are internal and external threading tools that back out the tool. It appears from the far with an automatic lead screw reversing system and the tool post that you could back off the tool one could thread quickly. Or is it yet just another way to back off the tool that can be accomplished with the compound?

Last question: There are several manafacutres. How do you tell what is the orginal Suisse system and what systems are made in Europe as opposed to Aisa . I guess the issue is quality and the ability for the tool to lock and repaeat. Prices on the system tend to range a good bit. Is there a given systen that has offered excellent service. I see AKA and FIX Eclair are both of these European systems or is the AXA an Asian system.

Hi Jim,

If you have not seen it Forrest posted (with good results) on the holders made by a clone manufacture - createtool.com
http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/general/multifix-toolholder-clone-review-222390/

nomenclature for these is different from the Aloris type - I think the general recommendation is a size E which is actually sized between A and B. Note that I do not have one of these in any flavor but have been thinking about it rather than picking up a aloris BXA type as the ability to quickly index to 40 positions looks to me to have its advantages.

paul

Hi Bill,

As mentioned, I don't have a 40 position tool holder. Reading some archived posts on them points to people really liking them or people stating as you do (what's the point - as the 9deg increments may not give what I want and I can simply swivel the post on the other designs).

Looks to me like it might be handy - for example, face or turn a part then easily index the same tool and kiss off a 45 chamfer, then be spot on for parting off.

Course I have never made my living at this and refer to myself as a hack

Paul

PaulM said:

... Looks to me like it might be handy - for example, face or turn a part then easily index the same tool and kiss off a 45 chamfer, then be spot on for parting off. ...

Click to expand...

Yep. I used this type of holder on an Emco lathe. Very nice!

Paul, Thanks for the link to CreateTool, I had missed that.

Cal

I use a size E made in China on a 13.5x30" Monarch knockoff (Nebel). It repeats well, and I greatly prefer it over the Aloris posts I use on every other lathe. It ended up being slightly short for my machine, so I put a 1/2" cylindrical riser under it. Problem solved. I wouldn't use a size B on a 10ee. The E size seems reasonable, if a bit large, for a 10ee. I have never seen a size A, so I can't comment on that.

When I need to rotate a tool in a lesser increment than 9*, I just move it in the toolholder, that way I don't change the settings of all the other tools. The same can be done in Aloris holders, but the tool has to be swiveled quite a bit farther for some angles. I have not needed to swivel my toolpost itself since I set it, while with Aloris, I find myself moving it multiple times per job.

A 40 position post is great if you rarely change your compound angle. My only problem with it is cost. 10 toolholders is not enough, and it adds up.

I have used a Multi-Fix in a shop enviroment. I have and do use an ALoris on my 10EE presently. I would agree with Halcohead. Cost is the main factor in me not haveing one presently. The Import price is atractive though. The Multi-Fix does give greater flexabilty. Yes you can losen an Aloris and reposition. That takes time. Time is money. If you change the compound angle, you still have to reposition an Aloris or any other tool post.
Tom

Tool holder

Hi Jim
I have the multifix suisse on my 3 EE cant say Iam happy with them .It is handy as the picture shows 45 deg tool moved to turn with then back to 90 to chanfer with .But as you can see the ajusting screws suck there so small if you drop the holder they bend .I would go with Aloris tool holder set up .
Collector

I've only touched an EE, so I can't comment on the proper size post for that machine.

After Forrest Addy did a brief review of a Create Tool 40 position tool holder, I decided to take the plunge and try the Create Tool 40 position system.

I am very pleased with the quality of the post and holders. I have 2 sets currently, An E size set for a 13" lathe at my work, and an A size set for my South Bend 11 at home. I have yet to use the A set because the lathe isn't running yet.

I have used the E set on my lathe @ work. I had used prior to this a 200 series Phase II Aloris copy. I like the multifix because it will hold larger tools for a given size. I could only fit 1/2" shank tools in the 200 series Phase II. I can fit 3/4" tools in the 20mm holders and 1" tools in the 25mm holders (I don't have a 25mm holder yet).

The A size post will hold up to 3/4" (20mm) shank tools. There are also 16mm holders.

The entire unit is larger than the Phase II it replaces, but it feels more rigid. I like the fact that there is no "handedness" to the multifix system, a tool holder can go anywhere within the 40 positions. I believe I could have used an A size post on the 13" lathe, but the A size is only rated for 2.5hp, as opposed to 6 for the E size. (lathe is 3hp). So I went with the larger E size.

Create Tool provided quick service.

I have a Swiss made EFI threading holder. I haven't used it yet, but based on it, the Create Tool stuff is a worthy copy at a much better price point. I am disappointed with the Create Tool ET parting tool holder. I had to shim the clamp piece for it to hold the blade properly. I don't know how many types of blades there are in the world, but I can't seem to find one that is the proper hight, so it [the clamp fulcrum] is shimmed about .064" and it works well now. There is an alternate holder on Ebay that is also Chinese, I'm tempted to purchase to see if it is a better blade holder. I have yet to purchase a parting tool holder for my A set. Also, my A size tool post was missing one of the three keys that rides in the groove of the spline. I made note of it when I ordered the E set and they sent me 3 keys. Support was responsive. Shipping is via DHL, you get it within 10 days in my experience. I'm not sure the exact time, but it was reasonably quick, coming from China. I'm planning on getting more of ED and AD holders and an AJ for the A post from Create. I'm looking at German Ebay for an AFE and AFI threading holders, I'm not actively planning on purchasing them yet. I lucked out on US ebay for the EFI holder I have. I think I'll get an AT holder from Ajax on Ebay, it is another Chinese made toolholder, I presume.

I've only just started using the multifix system, so I'm a newbie to it. I already need some more holders. I already like it much more than the Aloris style. The Create Tool stuff absolutely blows the doors off of the Phase II toolposts. There is no comparison in terms of quality. I have also spent time with a Dorian post, I like it, but I like the multifix style stuff even better. Dorian quality was top notch. I've never used actual Aloris brand stuff. I don't have a lot of Euro stuff to compare with, but Create Tool makes an upper end product in my opinion. Phase II's tool posts and holders are of the inferior quality I knew I was getting. They are usable, but not pleasantly so. The Create Tool stuff has a good look and function.

Here is a link to another PM multifix thread:

http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/general/seeking-multifix-advice-209324/

I will never recommend Phase II tool posts and holders again. Create's multifix is an order of magnitude better in quality. I think it is a better system also.

I haven't broken out the indicator to check repeatability. I'm making parts in a manual lathe. I don't have a quantitative analysis, for what it is worth. I have no connection with Create Tool. Just a happy customer.

Edit: Collector, quit dropping toolholders. Looks like operator error to me.

I have a real Suisse made on on my EE, Size A. Got it cheap from monarch. All of my holders are chinese.

A works, I think the E is better suited, but its what I have.

Never had a problem with dropping them, though I do have a rubber matt in front of my lathe.

The 40 positions are real nice. We have AXA and BXA holders at work and I also have a KDK at hope. The multi fix is real nice in being able to move a boring bar out of parallel while not having to move the tool post loosing registration for a straight tool.

"The 40 positions are real nice. We have AXA and BXA holders at work and I also have a KDK at hope. The multi fix is real nice in being able to move a boring bar out of parallel while not having to move the tool post loosing registration for a straight tool."

I have a pair of Aloris BXA-I QCTPs. Holders on four faces, if using "I" type holders or modified conventional type holders. Holders on two faces if using unmodified conventional type holders.

Both of mine have the extra-cost anti-rotating accessory and an Aloris-made T-nut.

Got 'em cheap as the seller had never seen a QCTP with such weird-shaped holders and four usable faces. Probably had never see a 10EE, either.

But, I have to agree with the logic being expressed here, and the "40 position" would probably be my choice if I wasn't already fixed-up with Aloris indexable systems.

Can't fault "Create's" product ... it appears to be a very solid product at a very affordable price.

My small lathes have AXA-type, one from Phase II (piston, so really an AX, not an AXA), which I very much regret, and one from Grainger (sliding dovetail, so really an AXA), which is much better in fit and finish than Phase II could ever dream about.

If an A size works on an EE than an E size will also work. They both can get the tool down to the same height with the equivalent sized holders, i.e. the 16mm holders can get down to the same height on the A post and the E post. Create doesn't make 16mm holders in the E size. I see them available in Europe, they are part of the design. However, the surface that the tool rides on in the holder can go just as low on either post, regardless of the capacity of the holder. (Edit I believe that only qualifies for the ED 16 & 20 holders, the ED25 holder might have a thicker tool ledge)

E size can take more horsepower and hold larger tooling. Small holders for the E size are (to me) hard to find. Create Tool sells ED 20 and ED 25 tool holders.
There are ED 16 holders, but like I said, I can't easily get them.

A size has smaller holders easily available, AD 16 and AD 20.

On my South Bend 11, I can use either post, but the E size feels too big. A looks to be the best size, which is good because I want to use the 16mm holders also.

I don't know how much horsepower a 10EE has, but having used another Monarch and knowing how they are built, I'd go with the larger possible option, so I'd look hard at the E size. But you have physical access to the machine, so take some time to run the numbers in the chart.

There is a size chart here:

Mutifix size chart

Regarding the retractible holders for threading, there is nothing automatic about them, they just provide a really easy way to retract the tool without touching the dials. They have some adjustable stops also, I guess to minimize the amount of throw you need, or to get in the ideal place on the cam. The stop doesn't seem terribly important in adjustability. I haven't used mine yet.

I've got a bit of a stupid question. I'm looking into the multifix toolholder. But looking around eBay, I see there are many versions. Type a,b,c and so on. So how does one choose between them?
I can give you the dimensions of the machine, but I can't figure it out by myself.

Tarmo

Ok, the lathe machine is this. Looks to be Finnish product.
Koneita.com - Metallisorvi Nova 290VF x 700G

I'll try to translate the dimensions.
Span is 700mm
Hole through spindle is 38mm
Motor is 1.1kW
The height of the blade should be 12mm.
Spindle is 160mm in diameter.
The machine is 1400 x 700 x 680 mm.
It's a fairly small lathe, but I don't need any bigger at the moment.

I hope I translated the measures close to what they are in english.

Tarmo

Well I'm hunting for tool holder to be used with 10ee.
Does an anyone have information:
1.where to buy used original E multifix (toolholder,set, anything that is made as addition to it)?
does anyone have it for sale?


2.Does E size have fast retract Screw thread tool holder as well? ( similar to Hardinge function )

quote from:James Allen
Has anyone experienced the threading tools in the multifix system? There are internal and external threading tools that back out the tool. It appears from the far with an automatic lead screw reversing system and the tool post that you could back off the tool one could thread quickly

Click to expand...

3.What is the difference (based on personal experience too, but not only), between A and E used on 10ee?
4. The B size of multifix toolholder is to big I assume. If so than how much too big inconvenience or trouble it is comparing to A and E?


5. What " versus metric- is the problem, some of you expressed if that toolholder is mounted on 10ee?
I did not get it.

Most Monarch lathes are built entirely to inch specs, and not everyone 'here can even be bothered to read Frenc.. 'er 'metric'.

Click to expand...

do not take me wrong I'm European in US and metric is just one of systems but I have to accept imperial
that is for me like "simple life necessity" here, but definitely not my cup of tea.


The reason to all of the question is simple.
I'm not wealthy enough to pay twice for right tool, including most if not all of Chinese junk.

No personal experience with multifix but do a search on the forum and you will find a review by Forrest of Create multifix copy holders that is favorable.
As far as I have been able to tell holders such as the quick retract are only made by the original company at this point and expensive.

If you have your heart set on euro holders your going to pay accordingly.

Also I get tired of the labeling as junk everything from China. Check your history, Japan originally made "junk" now has some of the highest quality, US cars could have been labeled as junk for years while they got wipped by the quality of Asian imports, I have a genuine made in USA Ti bike frame that is defective and the maker would not make good. All countries can produce junk as well as good products.
Paul

I have multi-fix tool posts on all my lathes and have been using them since 1980. They are brilliant, significantly better than the aloris type. I have those as well and the Aloris is a step up from a turret, but there is no better than the Multi-fix. They are very stiff, but their real value to me is their ability to register to the same position after removal and replacment. I use size A on a SB 10K, a size B on my late model SB 13 and a size C on my 18" L&S. I have multiple tool holders for those sizes and continue to collect more. Yes, I have those quick release threading holders for my size C. They work well and they are fast, but expensive. Their value is really in a more production environment, so i rarely use them. All mine are european made and I have toolholders from several makers and they all cross fit without problem. However, I have no experience with the Chinese imports.

PaulM said:

No personal experience with multifix but do a search on the forum and you will find a review by Forrest of Create multifix copy holders that is favorable.
As far as I have been able to tell holders such as the quick retract are only made by the original company at this point and expensive.

If you have your heart set on euro holders your going to pay accordingly.

Also I get tired of the labeling as junk everything from China. Check your history, Japan originally made "junk" now has some of the highest quality, US cars could have been labeled as junk for years while they got wipped by the quality of Asian imports, I have a genuine made in USA Ti bike frame that is defective and the maker would not make good. All countries can produce junk as well as good products.
Paul

Click to expand...

Paul thank you for help.
As my criticism goes I respect your point.
There is for me missing link that differs China from Japan,
have you never been born in socialistic part of the world, You would not be able to understand it .
Japan never experienced "komunism "
I'm by myself playing with science for 30 years and
I have very talented electrical scientist traveling frequently to China for business and performing tasks with Chinese.'
Yes there is tremendous change but:

Despite the German Pride and love to keep the order ( ordnung)and highest possible standards.
For most of the German and Swiss that distinctive difference is obvious.
And they will agree with me at no doubt.
Especially after Berlin Wall collapse.
Eastern and Western Germans from "Berlin wall time" would say,
Quality change?? Over there ??? compering to what??
Not in my life time.




word :Ordnung means

order, classification, systematic arranging; arrangement, act of putting in order; system, scheme; chain of events; tidiness, neatness; regulation

If any of you are interested in acquiring Mult-fix tool hoders or heads, they are readily available using eBay.de and priced significantly less than in the USA. Some of these folks will not ship outside of Germany, but if you need help in that regard, contact me. I am in Germany.

steve-l said:

If any of you are interested in acquiring Mult-fix tool hoders or heads, they are readily available using eBay.de and priced significantly less than in the USA. Some of these folks will not ship outside of Germany, but if you need help in that regard, contact me. I am in Germany.

Click to expand...

Thank you very much steve1
Danke für Ihre Hilfe
mein Freund

Repeat ability of multifix
has been shown on video of
MuellerNick

title:
DIY Optical tool setter for a Haas lathe
minute:
3:13

link:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zb0IQPHbU0g

Wow.. I want that toy




Is multifix B the one that is right for Monarch 10 ee?
If someone could respond to this question please.