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  1. #1
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    Post Need help with 10ee monarch wiring

    Gidday there, I am new to this forum and need a bit of help with my inquiries into setting up my monarch lathe. Its a 10EE. It is currently set up for for 3 phase. I have an inverter and wish to convert that to 240 volts.

    There is a wiring diagram behind the door at the end of the lathe, but is very hard to see. is there a way to change the wiring to star delta? It would be great if someone out there could point me in the right direction. If someone can, I can then give you more info on the lathe an maybe post some pics as to where everything is. Thanks, mark

  2. #2
    DaveE907 is offline Titanium
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    Welcome Mark. You've arrived at the greatest known source of information about the 10EE. There are people here that can help you and the forum also has a great depth of past posts with a wealth of information.

    In order to offer useful help we need more information. The 10EE was built in two different major configurations and came with a variety of drives from Monarch. They are all distinctly different. Additionally there have been a wide assortment of aftermarket and home built drives fitted to them over the years.

    Photos are very helpful, can you attach some? What does the builder's plate show? Year and serial number are good for starters. We need to know what you have to begin the conversation.

    Some original 10EE drives run fine off single phase. Let's first figure out what you're dealing with.

  3. #3
    peterh5322's Avatar
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    If memory serves, Australia is a 220/380 Y country, as are some European countries, in which the customer receives 220 from line to neutral, if a single-phase premises, or 380 line-to-line (three lines) and 220 line-to-neutral, if a three-phase premises.

    Early and late machines are three-phase, only.

    Intermediate machines, those with tubes, are single-phase for the drive (about 6 HP worth) but three-phase for the coolant pump (about 1/3 HP worth, if present).

    All machines were made as if they were to be connected to three-phase power, even if only two lines are actually employed by the drive.

    This can lead to a number of "iffy" situations where the drive is really single-phase, but three phases are required because of certain wiring withing the main contactor's housing.

    Not to worry, though, as we've seen just about every variation on the 10EE theme that there is, and a solution for your premises will soon be forthcoming.

    So, please supply as much info on your machine and on your premises as you can, and we'll go from there.
    Last edited by peterh5322; 08-22-2009 at 11:24 AM.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveE907 View Post
    Welcome Mark. You've arrived at the greatest known source of information about the 10EE. There are people here that can help you and the forum also has a great depth of past posts with a wealth of information.

    In order to offer useful help we need more information. The 10EE was built in two different major configurations and came with a variety of drives from Monarch. They are all distinctly different. Additionally there have been a wide assortment of aftermarket and home built drives fitted to them over the years.

    Photos are very helpful, can you attach some? What does the builder's plate show? Year and serial number are good for starters. We need to know what you have to begin the conversation.

    Some original 10EE drives run fine off single phase. Let's first figure out what you're dealing with.
    Hi there again, thanks for getting back to me on this matter. I will get the serial numbers etc, the year it was built and some pics and go from there. Thanks once again. Mark

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by peterh5322 View Post
    If memory serves, Australia is a 220/380 Y country, as are some European countries, in which the customer receives 220 from line to neutral, if a single-phase premises, or 380 line-to-line (three lines) and 220 line-to-neutral, if a three-phase premises.

    Early and late machines are three-phase, only.

    Intermediate machines, those with tubes, are single-phase for the drive (about 6 HP worth) but three-phase for the coolant pump (about 1/3 HP worth, if present).

    All machines were made as if they were to be connected to three-phase power, even if only two lines are actually employed by the drive.

    This can lead to a number of "iffy" situations where the drive is really single-phase, but three phases are required because of certain wiring withing the main contactor's housing.

    Not to worry, though, as we've seen just about every variation on the 10EE theme that there is, and a solution for your premises will soon be forthcoming.

    So, please supply as much info on your machine and on your premises as you can, and we'll go from there.
    Hi there again, I will post some pics of the lathe, as to what year it is, serial number etc, and go from there. Thanks once again, we'll be in touch. Cheers Mark

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by peterh5322 View Post
    If memory serves, Australia is a 220/380 Y country, as are some European countries, in which the customer receives 220 from line to neutral, if a single-phase premises, or 380 line-to-line (three lines) and 220 line-to-neutral, if a three-phase premises.

    Early and late machines are three-phase, only.

    Intermediate machines, those with tubes, are single-phase for the drive (about 6 HP worth) but three-phase for the coolant pump (about 1/3 HP worth, if present).

    All machines were made as if they were to be connected to three-phase power, even if only two lines are actually employed by the drive.

    This can lead to a number of "iffy" situations where the drive is really single-phase, but three phases are required because of certain wiring withing the main contactor's housing.

    Not to worry, though, as we've seen just about every variation on the 10EE theme that there is, and a solution for your premises will soon be forthcoming.

    So, please supply as much info on your machine and on your premises as you can, and we'll go from there.
    Hi there again, the inverter that I have is a single to 3 phase inverter. It turns single phase into 3 phase provided that the motor can be put to "star delta" It is currently running at a 1/3 of its power at a max. of 1000rpm. The lathe was running perfectly at the factory that I purchased it from on a 3 phase system, as I wanted to "try before you buy". But hence, our power here in my shed runs on single phase 240v. But we can talk more about that I suppose once I post some more info on the lathe itself. Cheers Mark.

  7. #7
    PDW
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hobbytools4you View Post
    Hi there again, the inverter that I have is a single to 3 phase inverter. It turns single phase into 3 phase provided that the motor can be put to "star delta" It is currently running at a 1/3 of its power at a max. of 1000rpm. The lathe was running perfectly at the factory that I purchased it from on a 3 phase system, as I wanted to "try before you buy". But hence, our power here in my shed runs on single phase 240v. But we can talk more about that I suppose once I post some more info on the lathe itself. Cheers Mark.
    It would have been running on 415V 3 phase. Did you get the inverter from Melbourne Machinery? IIRC they can also supply 240V single phase to 415V 3 phase inverters. With one of those, there would be nothing you'd have to do. Alternatively get 415V 3 phase supplied to the shed, this is the best thing to do for all sorts of reasons. Tell them you're going to install a 3 phase air conditioner. That generally works. I had them run 90A per phase into my place :-)

    If the motor is a US one, it almost certainly can be changed to 240V 3 phase. My B/port has a diagram inside the cover where the lead enters showing how to swap the jumpers around.

    The fact that you've seen it running is a major bonus.

    Pictures are good.

    PDW

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by PDW View Post
    It would have been running on 415V 3 phase. Did you get the inverter from Melbourne Machinery? IIRC they can also supply 240V single phase to 415V 3 phase inverters. With one of those, there would be nothing you'd have to do. Alternatively get 415V 3 phase supplied to the shed, this is the best thing to do for all sorts of reasons. Tell them you're going to install a 3 phase air conditioner. That generally works. I had them run 90A per phase into my place :-)

    If the motor is a US one, it almost certainly can be changed to 240V 3 phase. My B/port has a diagram inside the cover where the lead enters showing how to swap the jumpers around.

    The fact that you've seen it running is a major bonus.

    Pictures are good.

    PDW
    Hi there, yes I did purchase it from Melbourne Machinery. I run another inverter on my Myford ml7 lathe. works a treat. Michael @ Melbourne Machinery is is very helpful. The inverter that I purchased is a single to 3 phase, as you noted. I rang Michael back and I had it running, leads put direct to the motor, and it won't give me anymore than a 1000 rpms, but then gets hot quickly. Michael said, unless it is in 'star delta' I am only running on 1/3 of its power.

    I picked the Monarch up from a company in Melbourne last week and it had very little use and the only reason they were selling it, is they are moving into CNC lathes. So I got to play around on it and was very impressed. I paid $2500 for it, which I thought was a bonus, as it also came with the taper turning attachment. I have been communicating with 2 other guys in this post and I am going to take some pics today of the lathe and post them on the forum, so maybe I can work out the wiring for the monarch.

    I am going to take pics of the serial number, wiring boxes etc, so that way it will become more helpful. Will talk more then, when pics etc have been posted. Thanks for the quick reply. Cheers Mark.

  9. #9
    Steve in SoCal's Avatar
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    If the lathe has the original drive with tubes then it only requires single phase power, when connected to 3 phase only two leg conduct to the motor controls. Your inverter is not needed to run the lathe, you may need a transformer to match the service at your location to the machines voltage or you may be able to reconfigure the lathe, some parts may need to be replaced.

    Steve

  10. #10
    Greg Quenneville is offline Hot Rolled
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    If that' the one that was on ebay for a few weeks it is a 1941...should be an M-G if original.

    By inverter do you mean a VFD-variable frequency drive? Or is it some kind of solid state phase converter?

    Greg

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    Hi there Greg, It was on eBay, it was a 1942 model though. The inverter that I have for it, is a SV022icf-1p variable frequency drive. I am in the process of posting some pics, but need to reduce the size of them to upload. Thanks for the info. Cheers Mark

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    Steve in SoCal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hobbytools4you View Post
    Hi there Greg, It was on eBay, it was a 1942 model though. The inverter that I have for it, is a SV022icf-1p variable frequency drive. I am in the process of posting some pics, but need to reduce the size of them to upload. Thanks for the info. Cheers Mark
    In that case your inverter should work fine

    Get that old girl working.

    Steve

  13. #13
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    Talking Pictures of my monarch lathe 10ee

    Hi guys, I have posted some pics of the lathe. I hope these pics maybe of help to you guys to help me further.

    I have attached a pic of the plate with the serial # etc.

    The 2 red & 1 blue wire (box that faces front of lathe) are the wires that I was temporarily using to try out my inverter. (See earlier thread about lathe not running at full capacity; hence not wired correctly!!) Hoping from these pics, we can come to a conclusion as to how it can be wired for my inverter which is a svic5.

    Feel free to fire away, as it is gonna help me out heaps. Thanks Mark.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails monarch-lathe-pics-001.jpg   monarch-lathe-pics-002.jpg   monarch-lathe-pics-007.jpg   monarch-lathe-pics-006.jpg   monarch-lathe-pics-009.jpg  


  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve in SoCal View Post
    In that case your inverter should work fine

    Get that old girl working.

    Steve
    Hi there Steve, thanks for the quick reply. I have posted some pics and will post some more as you can only upload 5 at a time. Cheers Mark

  15. #15
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    Question Monarch lathe - more pics

    Here are some more pics of my lathe. Cheers Mark
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails monarch-lathe-pics-010.jpg   monarch-lathe-pics-011.jpg   monarch-lathe-pics-013.jpg   monarch-lathe-pics-015.jpg   monarch-lathe-pics-016.jpg  


  16. #16
    macona's Avatar
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    They didnt give you a big enough inverter. The motor on the motor-generator is roughly 6HP. Depending on the brand of the inverter and what it was designed to run on you may need as large as a 10HP rated inverter assuming it was a model rated for three phase input an you running it on single phase.

    It may be possible to run it on a smaller unit but you may have to turn you acceleration settings higher on the inverter. And slowly ramp up the speed from stop so you dont overload the inverter. Starting the spindle at high speed can really draw some power.

    Based on your model number for the VFD I am going to make some assumptions about the drive. SV022 probably 2.2kw, ~3hp. Half the size needed. -1p single phase input. The spindle motor in the machine is three horsepower but the machine is not that great efficiency wise so it needs a big motor to drive the generator and exciter. They probably gave you an inverter based on the spindle motor size.

    Edit, oh, the generator is rated for 415v. And the pic shows the motor is not wireable for a different voltage.

    At this point you will need to get a rotary phase converter and a step up transformer. I am surprised the lathe is even running off what you are giving it.

  17. #17
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    Hi there, the inverter i have, was purchased some time ago with a 3hp 3 phase motor to suit wired in 'star delta' for my wood lathe. I thought that it would be suited for it, seems I had one lying around and thought it may do the job.

    As it turns out it is pulling 8amps+, so I am ring Melbourne Machinery (here in Australia), today to see what inverter I will need. He told me if it doesn't run on 'star delta' then it will only run 1/3 of its power. And I can't figure out if the lathe can be wired in 'star delta', as it has 9 wires coming out of the box on the motor. It makes it hard when I'm not an electrician LOL. The inverter is 'in' 240v single phase and out 240v 3 phase, provided the motor can be wired in 'star delta' and not 415v.

    Will keep in touch and let you know of the outcome. If anyone else out there has any opinions, I'd be most grateful. Getting frustrated as I want to use the lathe. Cheers Mark

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    "... it has 9 wires coming out of the box on the motor ..."

    But, the motor's nameplate says 415 volts.

    If truly Y/∆, then six wires would be required, and the motor's nameplate would have stated both 415 volts and 240 volts.

    240 would, under normal circumstances, be the ∆ voltage, and 415 would, under normal circumstances, be the Y voltage, in a true Y/∆ situation.

    The exciter adds additional wires into the V-S drive's wiring box.

    The ones which are important, at this particular point, are the wires which are connected to T1, T2 and T3.

    Specifically, look for additional wires which are insulated, but are buried underneath the T1, ..., T3 wires.

  19. #19
    PDW
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hobbytools4you View Post
    Hi there, the inverter i have, was purchased some time ago with a 3hp 3 phase motor to suit wired in 'star delta' for my wood lathe. I thought that it would be suited for it, seems I had one lying around and thought it may do the job.

    As it turns out it is pulling 8amps+, so I am ring Melbourne Machinery (here in Australia), today to see what inverter I will need. He told me if it doesn't run on 'star delta' then it will only run 1/3 of its power. And I can't figure out if the lathe can be wired in 'star delta', as it has 9 wires coming out of the box on the motor. It makes it hard when I'm not an electrician LOL. The inverter is 'in' 240v single phase and out 240v 3 phase, provided the motor can be wired in 'star delta' and not 415v.

    Will keep in touch and let you know of the outcome. If anyone else out there has any opinions, I'd be most grateful. Getting frustrated as I want to use the lathe. Cheers Mark
    Are you sure that the motor itself has 9 wires coming out of it? All 3 phase single speed motors I've played with have 4 wires - 3 active (1 per phase) and earth. To reverse one all you need to do is switch any one phase about via an external switch.

    I've just had another look at some of mine. My 2 B/port motors are plated as 220/240V and 380/415V 3 phase and are jumpered internally to suit. One of my Aussie 3 phase motors is 415V only on the plate and no internal jumpers/bus bars to convert to 240V 3 phase.

    I suggest popping off the cover where the wires enter the motor and seeing what is in there. Post a photo of the inside.

    Some of the 415V 3 phase in/out VFD's can run somewhat de-rated on 240V single phase in but this is likely to be expensive due to the size of the VFD needed.

    As I said before, I'd also explore getting 3 phase put on to your home. There's a lot of mythology about how this is impossible to do for a domestic dwelling but IME this is bullshit. I've gotten it installed at every place I've owned over the last 30 years without any great hassle.

    I have a reasonable amount of D1-3 chucks etc I got with my Colchester Chipmaster, more than I'll ever use. Most of them are pretty ratty but I think I do have a new faceplate as well as the beat-up chucks. Depending on what you got with the machine and what you want, we might be able to work out a trade.

    PDW

  20. #20
    Cal Haines is online now Titanium
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hobbytools4you View Post
    ... I can't figure out if the lathe can be wired in 'star delta', as it has 9 wires coming out of the box on the motor.
    Hi Mark,

    Only 3 of those wires go to the AC motor. They are the ones hooked to the terminals T1, T2 and T3, at the bottom. The others go to the generator. The generator terminals all start with a letter "G" and the exciter terminals with an "E":



    Cal

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