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New to me 10EE

AndyA

Plastic
Joined
Feb 9, 2009
Location
Near Dallas, TX
I've recently bought a 10EE. It's a 1969, SN 49902. This would have originally been a modular drive, but sometime in its past it got converted to a 3ph scr drive.

The seller claims it was pulled from a working setup (yeah, you know how that goes). I did a look-over the electricals and didn't see any obvious problems. So I applied 3ph (the blower comes on). I hit the "on" button on the right side cntl panel (relays click). I move the spindle control to run.... nothing happens and the "flt trip" light illuminates on the drive. So.... now I'm going to start looking a little deeper.


It looks like it has the original motor (at least it's a motor with the integral gearbox). I haven't stuck my head in there far enough to read the nameplate. The cover on the wiring box on top of the motor is loose, and there are new looking wirenuts. So somebody's been in there jacking around.

Can somebody point me to information about the motor wiring? What resistance should I expect on what wirings? Any other things to look for to indicate problems with the motor? The motor spins freely via moving the belts.

This is a 4k spindle with ELSR. Inch only. The ways look to be in reasonably good condition. Putting a mag base on the carriage and a dial test indicator on the front face of the vee only shows 0.0005" over the carriage movement range. I'm not sure how accurate of a check this is, but at least the needle isn't waggling all over the place. The tailstock is operates smoothly. It also has a taper attachment.



Things I need to fix:

The drive!!!!

The taper attachment is missing the micrometer knob/shaft/screw, the magnifier is broken, and it's missing the bed clamp.

Mr. Torque sheared off the shaft on the speed potentiometer. The bevel gear and the top of the shaft are missing. There may be enough shaft remaining for me fit a new bevel gear, or I may be needing a new potentiometer.

The spindle control lever on the carriage is worn. I don't know if this is in the carriage or in the switch at the ELSR end.

It needs a good cleaning all around. I need to go into the head and clean the oil tubes. I took a quick peek in there and it looks clean without obvious problems. I can turn the spindle by hand and go through all the gears without problems. The lower gearbox shifts between backgears and direct (when manually bypassing the lockout). All sight glasses have oil. The "quick change" gearbox appears to be overfilled. I'm not sure if that indicates a problem with leakage from the spindle. The compound, cross slide, carriage, and apron could all use a disassemble and through cleaning.



I haven't found any information on this drive. I'm hoping someone here is familiar with it. I can't even seem to find a manufacturer.

This board is under the headstock where the module would have been. There are jumpers for 240/480. These were already set for 240volt. This board appears to be control only.
IMG_0461_small.JPG
Flip up the first board and this is underneath. This board appears to be the power. On the right side there are three incoming leads labeled "L1","L2","L3". These are each fused. The silkscreen mentions "SCR" and it appears these are on the backside of the board and mounted to a large aluminum heatsink on the other side. I'm guessing the red lumps are current measuring transformers.
IMG_0462_small.JPG

The frontside-right cabinet.
IMG_0464_small.JPG
IMG_0463_small.JPG

This is my first 10EE. I'm upgrading from a South Bend 9". Things didn't just plug-and-play, but I wasn't really expecting them to. I bought the machine under the assumption the drive wasn't going to work. I'm currently into it for $850. I'll probably have 4 or 5 times that much in it after buying chucks and tooling. It came with no tooling. Hopefully it will turn out to be as good a lathe as everyone says it is.
 
I was thinking it was just "fault".
I found leads on the power board labeled "F+" and "A+". I have to assume this is field and armature. I'll try to chase these down tomorrow after work and get a measurement.
 
I've recently bought a 10EE. It's a 1969, SN 49902. This would have originally been a modular drive, but sometime in its past it got converted to a 3ph scr drive.

The seller claims it was pulled from a working setup (yeah, you know how that goes). I did a look-over the electricals and didn't see any obvious problems. So I applied 3ph (the blower comes on). I hit the "on" button on the right side cntl panel (relays click). I move the spindle control to run.... nothing happens and the "flt trip" light illuminates on the drive. So.... now I'm going to start looking a little deeper.


It looks like it has the original motor (at least it's a motor with the integral gearbox). I haven't stuck my head in there far enough to read the nameplate. The cover on the wiring box on top of the motor is loose, and there are new looking wirenuts. So somebody's been in there jacking around.

....

I haven't found any information on this drive. I'm hoping someone here is familiar with it. I can't even seem to find a manufacturer.

So long as one HAS 'proper' 3-Phase to feed it, a 3-Phase SCR-type DC Drive is waaaay easier to support than a 1-P SCR-class DC Drive is. More 'pulses'. No need of boost transformer.

Unless... you are queer for rev engineering board and component level repairs, alone, and in the dark?

Dropping in any of several currently shipping, still supported, and well-documented replacement drives should be faster and cheaper than messing with a fossil drive gone orphaned.

IF..you have 3-P, of course...

Bill
 
So long as one HAS 'proper' 3-Phase to feed it

I don't have 'proper' utility 3 phase. I have a rotary convert with 20HP idler.

The drive has an indicator LED for missing phase. This isn't lit. It could be tripping out because it's seeing 180deg between two of the phases.

I'm going out to the shop tonight to make some measurements and do more through looking for obvious problems in the wiring.

I also need to read which specific model drive I have and then contact the manufacturer.

I'm going to spend some time going through the machine before I decide if I need to cut losses and buy a new drive.

rke[pler, thanks for the info on the drive manufacturer! Apparently I wasn't typing the correct phrases into google.
 
It spins!

but only weakly.

I dug around some more on the wiring.
In the front cabinet on the tailstock side, there are three smaller relays. The leftmost of these, a DPDT, had a broken wire on one of the commons. I soldered in a new wire. Is this the field loss relay? I tried to find pictures describing the location of the FLR, but was not successful. I have the PDF of the manual for a 1965 machine, no luck there either.

Under no load the spindle runs along at around 1000-1500 rpm. I promptly shredded the feed belt. So add that to the list of things to fix. Turning off the machine, I reached in and moved the speed potentiometer (remember my bevel gear is broken/missing). I can't tell that it's really having an effect.

Since I had the spindle running. I started testing out the gearbox. Ends up any little amount of load (even just driving the gearbox) will cause it to fault and shutdown. I'm going to try to contact the manufacturer tomorrow and see if I have any luck.

There are F+ and F- connections on the power board. The voltage across these is in the 150V DC range. Isn't that high? I put a DC clamp-on ammeter on the F+ lead. It shows 0.4 amps. The F voltage and amps are present with or without the spindle running.

I pulled off the compound and did some cleaning. There are still some signs of flaking on the lower compound. Is the cross slide also flaked? I don't see any signs where it's exposed.
What's the best way to remove the cross slide? Take off the taper attachment and remove from the back? Take off the knob and remove from the front?
 
Dropping in any of several currently shipping, still supported, and well-documented replacement drives should be

Do any of the available drives work well with a rotary converter. I'm guessing this would mean resistive braking versus regenerative braking. I'm ok with that. Which ones come recommended?

I don't have any love for the drive that's in the machine now. I just thought I'd give it a go. I've only got a few hours spent on it so far.

Thanks,
-Andy
 
Do any of the available drives work well with a rotary converter. I'm guessing this would mean resistive braking versus regenerative braking. I'm ok with that. Which ones come recommended?

I don't have any love for the drive that's in the machine now. I just thought I'd give it a go. I've only got a few hours spent on it so far.

Thanks,
-Andy

Meah.... bit of a dice-roll to run one off an RPC. They really prefer 'utility mains' grade 3-P.

The issue is that unlike VFD, SCR-class DC Drives have no smoothing/storage capacitor bank. They switch each of the phases 'directly'.

Good ones play phasing and switching games to make a "two-pulse" single-phase source appear to have eight pulses, and a "six-pulse" 3-P source have 24 pulses.

That gets the output of a 3-P DC Drive a lot closer to the smoother "rotating sourced" DC of, for example, the "MG" era 10EE.

Downside is it really does prefer 'native' 3-P - is not happy if one of the "legs" is has to use for raw material is not identical to the other two in all respects.

Most especially if it is a '4 Quadrant' AKA 'regenerative' DC Drive.

No big deal. If one does NOT have mains-quality 3-P, then a 3-P DC Drive run off an RPC - or even Phase Perfect - is not NEEDED.

Simpler to use a single-phase DC Drive with a hefty ripple filter, load side.

CAVEAT: They'll need a boost transformer. Preferably full-isolation, not 'autotransformer'. Much less switching trash placed back onto the upline that way.

For a 10EE's nominal 230 VDC final-drive motor, the boost needed is about 280 VAC minimum, around 340 VAC, max.

I use (Eurotherm)/Parker-SSD 514C-16 for the Armature, SSD 506,-7,or-8 for a controllable, regulated Field supply. Both with substantial 'swinging' chokes on their output side.

'Smoothness' is comparable to WiaD or Modular - both of which are, after all, themselves single-phase DC Drives.

"None of the above" are as smooth as the original MG. Nor as durable. Just acoustically quieter, electrically noisier, and less wasteful of Ergs.

Bill
 
It spins!

but only weakly.

It's a start, anyway.

In the front cabinet on the tailstock side, there are three smaller relays. The leftmost of these, a DPDT, had a broken wire on one of the commons. I soldered in a new wire. Is this the field loss relay? I tried to find pictures describing the location of the FLR, but was not successful. I have the PDF of the manual for a 1965 machine, no luck there either.

Should be the anti-plugging relay, at least according to the info I have.

Under no load the spindle runs along at around 1000-1500 rpm. I promptly shredded the feed belt. So add that to the list of things to fix. Turning off the machine, I reached in and moved the speed potentiometer (remember my bevel gear is broken/missing). I can't tell that it's really having an effect.

Since I had the spindle running. I started testing out the gearbox. Ends up any little amount of load (even just driving the gearbox) will cause it to fault and shutdown. I'm going to try to contact the manufacturer tomorrow and see if I have any luck.

You might also simply change the power inputs around. A rotary phase converter usually have a single 'wild' leg, the generated leg, and the voltage on that is variable. If that's on the input used to generate the control voltage the drive controller might be reading the change as a fault.

There are F+ and F- connections on the power board. The voltage across these is in the 150V DC range. Isn't that high? I put a DC clamp-on ammeter on the F+ lead. It shows 0.4 amps. The F voltage and amps are present with or without the spindle running.

The voltage might be a little high. I'd expect something like 120VAC and 1A. It's normal to see the field on when the drive is on but not running.

I pulled off the compound and did some cleaning. There are still some signs of flaking on the lower compound. Is the cross slide also flaked? I don't see any signs where it's exposed.
What's the best way to remove the cross slide? Take off the taper attachment and remove from the back? Take off the knob and remove from the front?

The cross slide has to come off the back, I think (IIRC it depends if the plate blocking crap from the cross slide screw well is still working on the stop). Pulling the cross slide knob is trivial, it's just sleeved into the cross slide screw. Look at this thread - lots of taper attachment and slide info:

http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/monarch-lathes/taper-attachment-10ee-171651/
 
It spins!

but only weakly.

I dug around some more on the wiring.
In the front cabinet on the tailstock side, there are three smaller relays. The leftmost of these, a DPDT, had a broken wire on one of the commons. I soldered in a new wire. Is this the field loss relay? I tried to find pictures describing the location of the FLR, but was not successful. I have the PDF of the manual for a 1965 machine, no luck there either.

Under no load the spindle runs along at around 1000-1500 rpm. I promptly shredded the feed belt. So add that to the list of things to fix. Turning off the machine, I reached in and moved the speed potentiometer (remember my bevel gear is broken/missing). I can't tell that it's really having an effect.

Since I had the spindle running. I started testing out the gearbox. Ends up any little amount of load (even just driving the gearbox) will cause it to fault and shutdown. I'm going to try to contact the manufacturer tomorrow and see if I have any luck.

I don't have a very clear 'picture' of how this is arranged.

It 'sounds like' the solid-state DC Drive's OWN assets are not being (fully) utilized for control & monitoring, but that it is instead quasi-integrated with the OEM controls & relays.

Serving as a (semi) passive or 'dumb' power-brick, IOW.

Usually better to use ZERO of the OEM controls, rely instead on the DC Drive's own sensors and controls.

Mind - that presupposes a 4Q DC Drive, where contactors are not needed and braking relay is optional.

A 1Q drive, such as the Beel/BICL D510 also has need of contactors for reversing, resistor(s) for braking, relays to manage all that.

Presume your DC Drive does as well?

There are F+ and F- connections on the power board. The voltage across these is in the 150V DC range. Isn't that high?
MG-era 10EE OEM spec is 115 VDC. What you actually have to-hand depends on where and how derived, how measured.

What you actually 'allow' to the Field depends in turn on your variable resistors "Or Equivalent".

In my case, I set the 50X SSD's to max of 140 VDC at the output (to field windings..) side of a two-stage ripple-filter.

I get a quieter machine, improved LOW RPM performance, and right sharpish braking capability.
I put a DC clamp-on ammeter on the F+ lead. It shows 0.4 amps. The F voltage and amps are present with or without the spindle running.
AFAIK 'early' 10EE left field power on at all times, and it used around 1.3 A @ full load when 'working' with a loaded Armature. Sitting idle? Much lower draw.

Again "AFAIK" LATER 10EE used timers and relays to drop Field Power when the machine was truly at-idle/on-standby.

Otherwise, it is just more noise and waste heat dumped into the HS area.

Bill
 
If you leave field voltage on the 5 hp motors used in modular lathes it will heat the headstock enough to affect accuracy and may have contributed to the failure of some of the diodes on the board above the motor. The timer on that circuit is a poor mechanical one that fails on. The startup delay is the same type. Replacements are available for over $200 and appear to be no better. I replaced them with solid state ones.

Bill
 
I don't have a very clear 'picture' of how this is arranged.

I don't have a clear picture yet either. The forward/reverse relay operate when moving the spindle control lever. Whether these are required or they were just left wired in, I don't know. I suspect they are being used.

There is a non-stock power resistor in the front tailstock cabinet. I assume this is for braking. The spindle appears to stop quickly enough to imply braking.

The version of drive I have is not listed on the manufacturer's website. So it's even older than the discontinued one. The one on the website has a fixed field voltage. So even if my drive were operating perfectly it would be a candidate for replacement.

I need to ohm out my speed control pot and verify it's correct. If I understand the setup correctly, I can use two new drives two follow voltages from the dual pot. These provide the variable armature and field voltages that should be correct for each rpm.

Would this setup have feedback to increase power under load? (Via an increase in armature voltage?)

The other option might be a servo setup. I'm digging through the forum for more information. Price? Backgear? Torque required? Drive?
 
You might also simply change the power inputs around. A rotary phase converter usually have a single 'wild' leg
........
The cross slide has to come off the back

No joy on swapping the generated leg to other inputs. It behaves the same in all positions.

I've since removed the cross slide. Lots of nasty stuff down around the lead screw. One end of the lead screw has some rust and pitting. Luckily it looks like the nut can't reach that part. The majority of the leadscrew looks good. No thinning of the threads. There's still some flaking on most of the underside of the cross slide. The front end (iirc) is worn just enough to make the flaking very light. No flaking can be seen on the lower surface though. One of the thrust bearings in the fixed block looks suspect. I think I may just replace them both. I assume these aren't anything special, and the correct preload solves any precision problems. The oil lines and the "Z"s had a lot of junk in them. I haven't gotten the oil lines cleared yet.
 
I just replaced my feed belt with one of these, works great:

POLY V-RIBBED BELT 4PK840 4 RIBS 840MM
840mm is roughly 33 inches. This is too short for my lathe. I measured and guessed around 38 inches. I found some other posts where someone used a 37.75 inch length and it worked fine. I'm going to try a 37.75 serpentine belt and see how that goes. I can source these at the local automotive parts place. They'll let me swap out if the size is wrong.
 
still using the original wiring and drive in my two round dial 10 ee's 41 and 43, that's a pretty good run so far.
Meah.... bit of a dice-roll to run one off an RPC. They really prefer 'utility mains' grade 3-P.

The issue is that unlike VFD, SCR-class DC Drives have no smoothing/storage capacitor bank. They switch each of the phases 'directly'.

Good ones play phasing and switching games to make a "two-pulse" single-phase source appear to have eight pulses, and a "six-pulse" 3-P source have 24 pulses.

That gets the output of a 3-P DC Drive a lot closer to the smoother "rotating sourced" DC of, for example, the "MG" era 10EE.

Downside is it really does prefer 'native' 3-P - is not happy if one of the "legs" is has to use for raw material is not identical to the other two in all respects.

Most especially if it is a '4 Quadrant' AKA 'regenerative' DC Drive.

No big deal. If one does NOT have mains-quality 3-P, then a 3-P DC Drive run off an RPC - or even Phase Perfect - is not NEEDED.

Simpler to use a single-phase DC Drive with a hefty ripple filter, load side.

CAVEAT: They'll need a boost transformer. Preferably full-isolation, not 'autotransformer'. Much less switching trash placed back onto the upline that way.

For a 10EE's nominal 230 VDC final-drive motor, the boost needed is about 280 VAC minimum, around 340 VAC, max.

I use (Eurotherm)/Parker-SSD 514C-16 for the Armature, SSD 506,-7,or-8 for a controllable, regulated Field supply. Both with substantial 'swinging' chokes on their output side.

'Smoothness' is comparable to WiaD or Modular - both of which are, after all, themselves single-phase DC Drives.

"None of the above" are as smooth as the original MG. Nor as durable. Just acoustically quieter, electrically noisier, and less wasteful of Ergs.

Bill
 
still using the original wiring and drive in my two round dial 10 ee's 41 and 43, that's a pretty good run so far.

I would have gone that route, but the original drive was already removed and replaced before I got the machine.

The options at this point are:
1) Use the original motor and backgear box, with a new drives for armature and field.
2) Install a servo motor and drive.
 
The auto parts store only had a 38" belt. It works just fine. There's plenty of room left on the tensioner in case the belt stretches any.
 








 
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