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New Owner! New project!

whateg0

Aluminum
Joined
Mar 24, 2009
Location
Wichita, KS
Well, I haven't even made it home with my new to me 10ee. Gotta stop for the night, then I'll finish the drive tomorrow.

Buddy of mine, Bob, convinced me to consider the 10ee and now I have one in tow, #32573.

Here's what I know so far. The PO said that one day he went to use it and it wouldn't get up to speed. He had purchased another motor/generator and was willing to sell it, I think, but I wasn't interested. If it turns out that the existing motor/generator really is bad and will cost much to fix it, I intend to put a 3ph motor and VFD in it. Might do that anyway to avoid the noise.

No accessories. In fact, he seemed a little put off that I even asked. No steady or follow rests. The locking lever on the tail stock was broken when he got it so he made another.

The bed ways seem okay. I didn't have time to make a jig to check the wear before heading to Texas to get it, so I'll check that out when I get back home.

The cross slide ways look terrible. Bob says that's not uncommon, so I guess I won't lose much sleep over it - at least until I find out how much it'll cost to get it rectified.

It's missing the top half of the end cover, but the rest are all there. I'm guessing it got broken at some time and was just discarded. I'll probably think about replacing it when I get some of the other stuff taken care of, and again, when I think I have the money for it.

So, it's another project, which is just what I needed, but this project should make a bunch of other projects go faster than they would have, if I ever get to them.

I don't have any pics yet, so I'll get some posted when I get some taken.

Dave
 
I'm just replying so I can subscribe to my own thread. Apparently, I had never set that. Why is that not a default setting somewhere? Who doesn't want to subscribe to their own threads?
 
Welcome to the club! Yours is the slightly older sister of my 10EE, s/n 33309, built in 1950. I got mine as a total basket case six months ago, but it is almost together now. My problem is the big brother of yours: absolutely no drive system or electrics at all! That is going to be a challenge.

Alan
 
I almost think I would have preferred no drive system. We pulled the cover off the back of the lathe, and the contactor is not original. There are a couple wires cut and a couple wires spliced. Not sure what's original. The stuff under the generator end isn't original, either. It's old, so whatever was done was done a while ago. Rather than try to make sense of it, I am planning on just ripping it all out and putting in a 3ph motor. Just have to decide whether to go with a 3 or 5 hp motor. It looks like the single phase requirement for a VFD is a lot higher than expected.
 
Looks like you have a pretty stock drive with the exception of the replacement of the exciter with a fixed DC supply. At least that's what it looks like from here.
 
I'd give the dc a fair shot - the mg's were the simplest to keep running. If you go ac - a flux vector motor without encoder is where I would go. I put a 7.5 hp in with the gearbox but had to do some trimming to fit it all in the base. I'd go with a 5 hp/ gearbox or 7.5 hp direct if I was to do it over.

Lots of reading here on the mg's, but ask whatever you need to ask. Many times its stupid stuff that stops them.
 
... Many times its stupid stuff that stops them.

I don't have the electrical to run a 5 hp motor without some major work, and since I rent, that's out. I know it's smallish, but I am thinking of a 3HP motor. I have considered using the MG, but I believe it, too, would take more power than I can feed it. My buddy's still has the MG and while I like the nastalgia of it, I don't like the noise. I have thought about trying to get it going as is, even if only to see it work. But, now, before it goes in the shop is going to be the easiest time to get the MG out. I do have potential weather coming this way tomorrow, though, so maybe it gets in the shop before I can pull it apart.


Dave
 
Welcome to the fold, where in Wichita are you? I have a shop in Hutch.

Regarding motors, you could look in the archives, there are a few 180 VDC motors that have been tried. You may only find 2 HP in something practical for the electrical service. Even a 3HP VFD may be too much? What power do you have available?

Steve
 
Welcome to the fold, where in Wichita are you? I have a shop in Hutch.

Regarding motors, you could look in the archives, there are a few 180 VDC motors that have been tried. You may only find 2 HP in something practical for the electrical service. Even a 3HP VFD may be too much? What power do you have available?

Steve

Only a 20A 220V circuit. I'm down near Haysville. I have been using a lathe with a 1/2HP motor for years now, so even 2HP would be a step up. I understand that lighter cuts would be necessary, but I don't really plan on taking huge DOC anyway.
 
You certainly won't be able to run the MG from a 20A circuit. The start up current is about 100A.

99% of the MG's noise comes from it's primitive fan, which looks like it a leftover from the air raid sirens used during the London Blitz. Take the fan off the MG, add a squirrel cage blower to cool it and you're fine.

The amount of work involved in adapting an AC motor to the 10EE's back gear unit is significant. You are fooling yourself if you think you will have a satisfactory result with a 3HP VFD motor directly belted to the spindle.

WILLEO6709 has experience converting MG machines and has MG, VFD and Beel DC drive 10EEs in his shop. Listen to him.

I would get something like a KB Electronics KBWT-210 and wire it up in place of the DC generator, using the existing DC control panel to control reversing, etc. I have a wiring diagram around somewhere that has the connections. No, you won't get the full 3HP at some speeds (but you will at others), but you'll get much better performance than you would from a 3HP VFD. The KBWT-210 draws 15A at 230 VAC, so should work fine on a 20A circuit. I would probably use the existing exciter replacement, assuming that it works, to power the DC control panel and the spindle motor's field. Any competent industrial electrician could wire it up for you in an hour or two (there are relatively few connections to be made).

Cal
 
Only a 20A 220V circuit. I'm down near Haysville. I have been using a lathe with a 1/2HP motor for years now, so even 2HP would be a step up. I understand that lighter cuts would be necessary, but I don't really plan on taking huge DOC anyway.

Believe it or not, 20A can be plenty. I've run tests for years off a 15A @ 240 VAC breaker. I trip-out the DC drive on the 'harsh' ones, but-so far - have never tripped-out the Square-D QO breaker (they typically react @ around 135% of nominal anyway..)

Howso?

The MG is overall only about 55% efficient. The final-drive motor itself only about 73%. OTOH, it only ASKS for a tad over 12A @ 230VDC for full nameplate output and another Amp and a half for its field @ 115 VDC.

Efficiency figures compare poorly to modern high-E 3-P motors, but .. the price one pays for a wide RPM, uber-smooth power band with pre-WWI Ward-Leonard technology.

A Eurotherm/Parker SSD 512C-16 DC drive is closer to 98% efficient. 5 Watts idle dissipation, 55-65 Watts wasted at full-gallop. NO significant starting inrush. Dasn't even have fans on the heat-sink. No need. Ditto the SSD-506/7/8 used for field power.

Legacy DC Controller and all other wiring go away. The 4Q DRIVE electronics handle choice of how aggressive ramp up/down, braking and reversing are. FWD - OFF/BRAKE - REV respond to a single 'knob'.

I have -so far - left the Field power on a separate knob. Use is akin to flying a 'complex' aircraft, separate pitch / throttle controls to balance.

Upside is I can choose the Field-Weakening crossover point at will. Or crank the torque down to stall rather than break a small-diameter tap.

Not selling anything.

Just grinning.....

:)

Bill
 
That KB drive seems attractive. Looks like it can be had for about $165, which puts right in line with an import VFD. I'm not patently opposed to keeping the DC motor. I just didn't really plan to buy another lathe right now. I was looking, but figured if something came along for under $1500, I might be interested. That was for a running machine. Factor in the cost of picking this one up and then getting it running, I may well end up far over my $1500 budget. I'm not saying this wasn't still a good deal on a great machine. But I think a Ferrari is a great machine too, and I can't afford it either.

So, what I'm gathering is that the spindle motor is rarely the problem. It's always the drive. That does make it easier to put money into the DC system.

As far as adapting an AC motor to the gearbox, I never dreamed it would be easy. I did envision coupling the gearbox to the motor via timing belt, though, to avoid alignment and motor shaft issues. I haven't had it apart to see, but my understanding is that until I get into a bigger frame motor, the shaft will be too small. So rather than try to adapt it, it seems like it would make as much sense to separate them. That also frees me up to be a little less picky about the motor I end up with, if I go that route.
 
That KB drive seems attractive.

Last time I counted, I had nine or so K-B Penta drives, all but two in Nema 4X housings. And all EXCEPT my 10EE motors I went the extra effort to purchase as 180 VDC wound, so they 'fit' each other.

So I LIKE them. That said, the FIRST one I bought - a 5 HP KBRG-255 4Q or 'regenerative' DC Drive.. was intended to operate my first 10EE.

A 20+ Amp capable @ 180 VDC 5 HP nominal DC Drive can make chips with a 10EE's 230 VDC motor.

But if I'd wanted a 3/4 or 1 HP SB Ten, I cudda saved several thousand bucks in go-fetch costs alone.

And that is about what you get with only 180 VDC into that motor, 'coz it struggles to stabilize under load, most especially if you enter Field Weakening zone much at all. The SB ten has belts that can be shifted. A 10EE does not.

Lots of chips have been made on SB Tens over the years. That may be all you need.

I wanted 'more' out of a 10EE, whether I needed it or not. "Principle of the thing".

There is now a trio - around 8 KW worth - of full-isolation step-up transformer array at 350 VAC ahead of the Eurotherm/Parker SSD 516-C-16 drives I use. 300+ VDC output side of load reactor.

THAT will push the large-frame Reliance 3 HP nominal to around 4.3 HP.

More importantly, it is extremely STABLE under real-world load, light, medium, or heavy at all or only part of the nominal 3 HP.

Nice thing about a 10EE?

It ain't that hard to change yer mind about the choice of drive and motor.

Start where your budget is comfortable. Upgrade if/as/when you want to do.

Motor will even make turns off a coupla motorcar batteries. Thass how I polish the commutator w/o risk of rectumfrying meself.


Bill
 
I did read on a thread somewhere else a little earlier about somebody's concern that without enough of a DC drive, the motor might not be able to maintain spindle speed very well under a load, so that is a concern. My very limited experience (that's to say none) tells me that a VFD should do better at that. I don't know that for sure, though. I would love to be able to shove 300VDC over to the motor when needed. In fact, I probably could, but I don't know how I'd control it.

I do see what you are saying about the lower voltage and associated lackluster performance. And maybe that's another reason to go 3ph for now and maybe, if I find myself really wanting to use the DC motor again, I'll be able to afford it in the future.

Dave
 
So, I was just shown the back gear box in better detail. I can see why using a pulley to get there didn't make sense to anybody. No big deal, though. There are still ways to get where I want to go without pulleys.
 
I did read on a thread somewhere else a little earlier about somebody's concern that without enough of a DC drive, the motor might not be able to maintain spindle speed very well under a load, so that is a concern. My very limited experience (that's to say none) tells me that a VFD should do better at that. I don't know that for sure, though. I would love to be able to shove 300VDC over to the motor when needed. In fact, I probably could, but I don't know how I'd control it.

I do see what you are saying about the lower voltage and associated lackluster performance. And maybe that's another reason to go 3ph for now and maybe, if I find myself really wanting to use the DC motor again, I'll be able to afford it in the future.

Dave

If the DC motor is there, paid-for, not obviously trashed?

- cleanup. That's sweat equity, not bucks.

- New brushes, usually. Monarch Lathe LP has the 'right' ones at a rather modest markup. They are hard to part-match otherwise. More variables than first meet the eye and no longer common.

You can find out how to dress and fit brushes, cleanup the armature, no?

See also 'timing' the brush-holder.

- 'Aside' all the wiring at the motor peckerhead, unaltered, for later possible restoration.
2 Armature leads, 2 Field leads, all marked. BFD.

No other electrical-anything anywhere on the lathe will remain in-play.

- Attach used-but-good Eurotherm/Parker-SSD 516-C-wotever DC Drive per its manual.

It is good for 400+ VAC single-phase input, where the KB units top out at 230 VAC, nominal.

Future-proofing at work.

Also a more sophisticated DC drive unit in all respects.

- defer the cost of a boost transformer for the time being.

With the typical SSD 516-C used-but-good, even NOS or NIB, off the usual suspects on eBay @ $380-$400, average costs for fuses, a disconnect, cabling, plugs, sockets, etc, you are in for around $500 - $600, and the 20A circuit can still run other stuff.

Only SLIGHT performance gain over the KBRG-255 route. So far. But .. you are already set for use of a boost transformer when one shows up at a favourable price (and shipping..).

K-B cannot even USE one if it fell outta the sky, free. Maxed-out at 230 VDC input already.

Easiest one is hard to find used/cheap. 240 VAC -> 277 VAC @ 5 KVA. Mine were being used for testing by a maker of fluorescent fixtures. I'm testing, re-finding and pushing forgotten-about limits, not making chips, so also added a 48V and a 32 V, all paralleled for 349 VAC, nominal.

Next easiest boost transformer to find, used might be a 120/240 <-> 120/240 VAC isolation, PLUS a paralleled 240 <-> 120 VAC for 240 + 120 = 360 VAC. The DC Drive has settings for what you will allow it to onpass to the DC motor, so that's OK.

You do NOT, repeat NOT want to use a buck/boost transformer wired as an 'autotransformer' with an SSD drive, and even LESS so with any lesser DC drive.

Folks who DO that haven't the least of manners as to how B****y RUDE an SCR-class DC drive is to the neighbours on the shared upstream or your OWN in-premises wiring and various gadgets and appliances.

Wire for 'drive isolation' transformers instead.

Roughly another $200 - $300 if you buy the transformer(s) used, mebbe 3 or 4 times that, new, plus shipping.

I use another 1Q DC drive for the Field power.

SSD-506, 507, or 508. Anywhere from $25 to $80, used-but-good.

This is future-proofing for Field REGULATOR operation with tachometer integration, a Master/Slave feature SSD provided in that drive family.

With mostly used, NIB, NOS parts you are in business for $500-600 'limited', and still under $1,000 well-served with the boost needed.

All the parts I am using are still current, new production items, and not terribly costly even if bought brand-new.

Gilding the lily is the addition of 'swinging choke' load-side smoothing reactors to both Armature and Field. The residual AC growl goes away, the usable lower-end direct-drive RPM improves.

Last and still on my 'To Do' list is a decent tachometer feedback system. It has to be on-motor, ELSE the drive has to be switched from tacho feedback to internal IR mode when the gearbox is engaged.

If/as/when you get to the point ALL of that is well-executed?

Just grin. Broadly. It's rude to tease those less fortunate in life...

:)

Bill
 
Well, I've mulled this over while clearing a spot in the shop for the lathe. Tonight I moved the lathe into the shop, and knowing how much room I was able to clear, and how much room there isn't for maneuvering, I decided that for the time being, I'm putting in a 3ph motor. I'll be out a couple hundred plus some time to make the motor fit the gearbox, but that seems to be the most reasonable way to get the thing spinning so I can find out for sure what else it needs. So, I pulled the motor and MG and have them set aside. Nothing says I can't put them back someday if I find that I want to. And if I decide never to do so, they may help somebody else who has a need for them.

The transmission in the truck just stopped going into reverse, so now that the lathe isn't being stored under plastic and a tarp, the truck is the next highest priority. As it goes, life just got real busy. Trip to DC at the end of the month to visit a customer. Truck to fix. Lathe to get running. And still a lot of other projects that just aren't moving along fast enough, and some of them with deadlines. That is to say, now that the lathe is indoors, it is going to have to be put on the back burner just a little bit until I can get some other stuff done.

Dave
 
So, I was reading this manual for the 10EE and it mentions that the forward/reverse feed knob should have a neutral position in the middle. My buddy, Bob, was over looking at my lathe and mentioned the same thing, but mine sure doesn't seem to have that neutral position. Now, since it's not under power yet, I can't verify that each end of the travel really is the end of the travel, so maybe that's the piece of the puzzle I'm missing, but it sure does feel like there is no farther for it to go. Also of note is that the halfnuts are only supposed to be able to be engaged if it's in neutral. Mine will engage with the knob either in or out. Did Monarch make some machines like this? Or should I be on the looking for parts falling out when I take the oil reservoir off?
 








 
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