Random Apron Handwheel Detail Input Discussions.

rakort · Apr 5, 2018

So couple of questions regarding some details of the handwheel input shaft assembly.

On the input "clutch" hub there is a pin held in by a circle clip which would almost act as a detent to slip the clutch collar/hub in and out to enable or disable the handwheel clutch operation.

The detents in the shaft seem minimal or not intentional. The clutch hub is knurled implying there is some intent to shift it in or out so these things don't go together.

Also, is the purpose of the set screw in the hub on the handwheel to simply secure the pressed in clutch hub? Seems redundant to what seems to be an otherwise pressed in fit.

thoughts?

thermite · Apr 5, 2018

rakort said:
So couple of questions regarding some details of the handwheel input shaft assembly.

On the input "clutch" hub there is a pin held in by a circle clip which would almost act as a detent to slip the clutch collar/hub in and out to enable or disable the handwheel clutch operation.

The detents in the shaft seem minimal or not intentional. The clutch hub is knurled implying there is some intent to shift it in or out so these things don't go together.

Also, is the purpose of the set screw in the hub on the handwheel to simply secure the pressed in clutch hub? Seems redundant to what seems to be an otherwise pressed in fit.

thoughts?

View attachment 224974

View attachment 224975

View attachment 224976

View attachment 224977

MY "thought" is you do whatever works to MAKE the handwheel dis-engageable. OTOH, I'm only anal about such things 'coz a big-ole Niles once whacked me a GOOD hit, just above the knee.

10EE handwheel is not "necessarily" placed to do as much damage, but it remains a nice-to-have feature.

rakort · Apr 5, 2018

thermite said:
MY "thought" is you do whatever works to MAKE the handwheel dis-engageable. OTOH, I'm only anal about such things 'coz a big-ole Niles once whacked me a GOOD hit, just above the knee.

10EE handwheel is not "necessarily" placed to do as much damage, but it remains a nice-to-have feature.

Indeed it will be detachable....I guess the puzzle I'm working through is how to make it best perform as a detachable wheel. The sliding hub (not part of the handwheel) and its supposed wanabee detent

thermite · Apr 5, 2018

rakort said:
Indeed it will be detachable....I guess the puzzle I'm working through is how to make it best perform as a detachable wheel. The sliding hub (not part of the handwheel) and its supposed wanabee detent

Your one must have seen a hard life or been Bubba-fied along the route.

My '42 and '44 both snap out cleanly and stay put, handwheel spinning free and no attempt to pop back into engagement until made to do.

Mind - OTHER wear notwithstanding, each of my two may have spent near-as-dammit its whole life engaged, they are that crisp in action, so..

Try to put it back to the OEM state of affairs. It works really well.

rakort · Apr 5, 2018

thermite said:
Your one must have seen a hard life or been Bubba-fied along the route.

My '42 and '44 both snap out cleanly and stay put

I like the snap out cleanly idea...trying to make sure I get that on lock down. Haven't done the final "stack up" to verify how everything is supposed to work together exactly, but the snap ring groove, circled in red, is still puzzling me as well. Anyone have a snap ring here? Mine didn't.

thermite · Apr 5, 2018

rakort said:
I like the snap out cleanly idea...trying to make sure I get that on lock down. Haven't done the final "stack up" to verify how everything is supposed to work together exactly, but the snap ring groove, circled in red, is still puzzling me as well. Anyone have a snap ring here? Mine didn't.

There woud not BE a "snap ring". That should be a 360-degree curved-bottom seat for a single spring-loaded ball detent captive in the hub.

It needs to be able snap into place to hold Axially, regardless of where the dog-clutch teeth find their mates on the handwheel, O'clock or degrees of rotation-wise.

Your ball detent may simply be full of varnised petro-shite, other crud, or coolant corrosion that prevents free positive movement. "Wanabee" the detent is not. Crisp, clean, snappy, and positive, rather. Git 'er clean and oily again, should work ship-shape and Monarch.

rke[pler · Apr 6, 2018

thermite said:
There woud not BE a "snap ring". That should be a 360-degree curved-bottom seat for a single spring-loaded ball detent captive in the hub.

There is a snap ring involved in there somewhere, mine wasn't quite right until I discovered it missing and replaced it. I think that until then things felt loose, a little off.

Here's a detail from the service drawings:

thermite · Apr 6, 2018

rke[pler said:
There is a snap ring involved in there somewhere, mine wasn't quite right until I discovered it missing and replaced it. I think that until then things felt loose, a little off.

IF.. I wasn't several YEARS behind on deliverables to meself and others.. I'd volunteer to go take one of my two apart. Unrealistic for the time being, as I have monkey-patched roofing repairs that really cannot wait any longer than they have already to be better corrected.

Sufficeth to say that old as they are, both on my "round dial" 10EE work so cleanly and crisply as to bring grins of appreciation for their precision feel.

Hopefully, a basic cleanup of the OP's one will reveal the way toward resolution as to whatever is needed to restore the same action and feel.

rakort · Apr 6, 2018

OK I think I figured this out.

Originally the "handwheel clutch" (the hub outboard of the handwheel) was sort of fixed in place with grit and grime and the handwheel slipped in and out to engage and disengage. BY design the operation should be reverse of that. The handwheel is held in place with a "snap ring" really a constant (round) section retaining ring and the handwheel clutch (hub) was designed to slip in and out with a detent to engage and disengage the handwheel hence the knurled OD of this hub.

In my "as found" setup I was missing the "snap ring" (retaining ring) I referred to earlier is shown in in red circle. This holds the handwheel in place and it being missing was causing the wonky setup.

Probably the most inportant thing for proper operation is the tension from the "snap" ring on the detent plunger. When I said "wanabee" detent it now makes sense the detents in the shaft are quite minimal.......the clutch hub shouldn't be held by a HD detent otherwise it wouldn't work when it was needed

Cal Haines · Apr 6, 2018

rakort said:
OK I think I figured this out.

Originally the "handwheel clutch" (the hub outboard of the handwheel) was sort of fixed in place with grit and grime and the handwheel slipped in and out to engage and disengage. BY design the operation should be reverse of that. The handwheel is held in place with a "snap ring" really a constant (round) section retaining ring and the handwheel clutch (hub) was designed to slip in and out with a detent to engage and disengage the handwheel hence the knurled OD of this hub.

In my "as found" setup I was missing the "snap ring" (retaining ring) I referred to earlier is shown in in red circle. This holds the handwheel in place and it being missing was causing the wonky setup.

View attachment 225075

View attachment 225076

Probably the most inportant thing for proper operation is the tension from the "snap" ring on the detent plunger. When I said "wanabee" detent it now makes sense the detents in the shaft are quite minimal.......the clutch hub shouldn't be held by a HD detent otherwise it wouldn't work when it was needed

You're correct. The handwheel is supposed to spin free on the shaft, the dog clutch can be engaged to lock it to the shaft's rotation.

I used an external snap ring hold mine in place on the shaft. It probably originally had a circular wire clip to hold it in place; those damn things are very difficult to deal with and I usually replace them with snap rings if I can.

Cal

thermite · Apr 7, 2018

rakort said:
Originally the "handwheel clutch" (the hub outboard of the handwheel) was sort of fixed in place with grit and grime and the handwheel slipped in and out to engage and disengage. BY design the operation should be reverse of that. The handwheel is held in place with a "snap ring" really a constant (round) section retaining ring and the handwheel clutch (hub) was designed to slip in and out with a detent to engage and disengage the handwheel hence the knurled OD of this hub.

Thanks for that.

Not being aware of how badly yours had been abused, your assessment as to "wannabee" detent did not compute.

whateg0 · Apr 11, 2018

How convenient that this is being discussed right now. I just took the clutch knob off of mine tonight because it doesn't "snap" into place the way my buddy Bob's does on his round dial. I initially didn't find the detent opposite the key because it was pretty smooth with crud. After some cleaning, though, there are in fact, what appear to be two little divots connected by a groove worn in the shaft. The pin that should snap into those divots is worn flat on mine, so it's no wonder it slide freely wherever it wanted to go. Mine was also missing the snap ring to hold the handwheel in place, so it would slide back and forth as well. When I got my lathe home, in fact, the handwheel was locked in place out against the clutch knob by setscrews.

So, now the question is, what should I make the replacement pin from, and should I drill a couple new divots maybe 30 degrees to one side or the other?

thermite · Apr 11, 2018

whateg0 said:
So, now the question is, what should I make the replacement pin from, and should I drill a couple new divots maybe 30 degrees to one side or the other?

Not sure if "extra" divots would be a plus or a minus. How many positions does the dog clutch need?

As to material? Wotever you have handy that you are comfortable with torch-hardening effectively should work the easiest. Oil-hardening "drill rod" here.

Moot point here too. Thats ONE thing on both my old round-dials that just happens to still work like new!

rakort · Apr 11, 2018

whateg0 said:
should I drill a couple new divots maybe 30 degrees to one side or the other?

This isn't an option as the detent divots are 180 degrees off of the keyway.

whateg0 · Apr 11, 2018

rakort said:
This isn't an option as the detent divots are 180 degrees off of the keyway.

I'm not following you. If I drill a new hole for the pin and put new divots where the hole is, what does the original location have to do with it?

Dave

thermite · Apr 11, 2018

whateg0 said:
I'm not following you. If I drill a new hole for the pin and put new divots where the hole is, what does the original location have to do with it?

Dave

Not sure, but given the scarcity and cost of Monarch parts or DIY fab?

You might want to vet the concept on something cheaper and more readily available, first.

The bolt pattern of yer spare tire or the timing gear of your motorcar's engine come early to mind.

IOW: WHY MESS?

whateg0 · Apr 11, 2018

thermite said:
Not sure, but given the scarcity and cost of Monarch parts or DIY fab?

You might want to vet the concept on something cheaper and more readily available, first.

The bolt pattern of yer spare tire or the timing gear of your motorcar's engine come early to mind.

IOW: WHY MESS?

I'm not sure I follow. The existing location has a path worn between what appears to have been the original recesses. To leave everything as it is means that the clutch knob slides freely, even during turning operation. Sometimes, the knob will become disengaged and the handwheel will freewheel. Or, other times when it should be disengaged, during a threading operation, for example, it will slide in and catch the handwheel. (If I leave it engaged during threading, as the handle passes over center, slack in the gears is taken up as it falls and causes the carriage to jerk slightly.) IOW, I would like the knob to work as it is supposed to and now it doesn't. I don't know what a bolt pattern has to do with me relocating the detent and pin so that they work properly.

Dave

whateg0 · Apr 11, 2018

To be fair, with the snap ring on the shaft missing, it is possible that some of the inadvertent movement could be the handwheel itself, too. Still, as it is, the knob/clutch (what is the proper name for that part?) does not in any way snap into place anywhere along its travel.

Dave

thermite · Apr 11, 2018

whateg0 said:
I'm not sure I follow. The existing location has a path worn between what appears to have been the original recesses. To leave everything as it is means that the clutch knob slides freely, even during turning operation. Sometimes, the knob will become disengaged and the handwheel will freewheel. Or, other times when it should be disengaged, during a threading operation, for example, it will slide in and catch the handwheel. (If I leave it engaged during threading, as the handle passes over center, slack in the gears is taken up as it falls and causes the carriage to jerk slightly.) IOW, I would like the knob to work as it is supposed to and now it doesn't. I don't know what a bolt pattern has to do with me relocating the detent and pin so that they work properly.

Dave

You aren't "following" because you are still viewing that handwheel's world from the vantage point of a badly f**ked example.

Put it back exactly as original.

You will get a whole NEW worldview that whilst MTW may or may not have been b**y geniuses, they DID manage to implement a very simple, and VERY effective, crisp-acting mechanism, right there.
There is no pressing need to improve on that.

Certainly not when there are so very many OTHER thngs on a(ny) "veteran" 10EE that MUST have a great deal of your time and effort poured into to set right.

Get overly hung-up on re-engineering this trivial detail? The rest won't ever get DONE.

DAMHIKT - Not casting stones. I live in a "glass house" meself.

My own "costly detour" has been gong OCD over the damned DC Drives. Got those sweet as can be. Finally.

But hardly a damned thing ELSE has even been started.

whateg0 · Apr 11, 2018

thermite said:
...they DID manage to implement a very simple, and VERY effective, crisp-acting mechanism, right there....

That's the whole point of this. There is not even a sloppy-acting mechanism there. It slides freely because a) the pin that should drop into the dimple is worn completely flat on the bottom, and b) there is a worn path from one dimple to the other, so there is nothing for the pin to snap into. I experienced what it should feel like on Bob's round dial, and thought, hey, mine doesn't do that at all. So, I'd like to fix it. Then I, too, would have a VERY effective, crisp-acting mechanism. As is, I don't.

Dave

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