Embarrassingly newbie question here:

Is there such a thing as a simple, reliable, economical 10EE for a garage machinist, or should I be looking at other machines? I would like to upgrade from my 8" swing lathe that comes from from the country that must not be mentioned on this site.

I am limited both by space and budget, and by extension electrical service. I can pretty easily fit a lathe that measures 6 feet in overall length and 3 feet in depth. With some painful sacrifices, I can probably make space for up to 8 feet by 4 feet. I would really like a useful swing of at least 12" and a practical length capability of 24-36".

The overall budget for lathe + power supply + essential basic tooling might optimistically add up to $2000-$3000 including transport to Southwestern Virginia. (There is no way that I can spend "a few thousand more", regardless of how much better or patriotic it would be. The money just ain't there...)

To make it a bit easier, I don't need an aerospace quality lathe. I probably don't even *need* a job shop quality lathe. I know that I won't buy a POS like the South Bend 9B I looked at with a 1/8" ridge on the ways. (Actually, I don't *need* a lathe at all, but I'd REALLY like a better one).

My perfectionist/OCD side keeps steering me toward a 10EE or an HLV-H, but my cheapazz real-world side tells me to look for something that's more of a "stone knives and bearskins" machine.

A few years ago, I would have known that a 10EE or HVL-H was a fantasy, but with the current economy that's not so obvious. My income is down, but it looks like machinery values may be down even more.

I'd really appreciate some experienced input here. Are my Monarch or Hardinge dream machines really high-maintenance nightmares? Should I be looking at South Bend, Rockwell, Clausing/Colchester, Logan...? Or is there an undervalued smallish American Pacemaker, Cincinnati, or P&W or some such that I should know about?

It seems pretty unlikely, but "If you don't ask, you can't learn" - Does anybody know of a reasonably reliable source for a fairly priced decent smallish lathe within a half-days drive of zip code 24060?

Getting back to the thread title, I'm pretty sure I'd love a reliable working 10EE even if it was a little sloppy and swaybacked, but I'm not very attracted by multi-hundred$ vacuum tubes and esoteric diagnostic procedures, or multi-thousand$ VFD conversions, or multi-hundred hour restoration/re-engineering projects.

Any constructive suggestions will be appreciated. Well-founded "you're an idiot" comments will at least be enjoyed for their entertainment value.

Thanks, GravyDavy

Gravy, thats a great post!
If you poke around, you will probably find an EE stupid cheap, its happened to me several times recently, until my loved ones had an intervention.

"I would really like a useful swing of at least 12" and a practical length capability of 24-36"."

These requirements take you out of either the HLV-H or 10 EE capacity except for relatively rare (and expensive) 10 EE lathes with 30 inches between centers.

The 10 EE will swing 12 inches but unless it's a short part forget it. Think faceplate work.

In your budget range and size requirements you would be well served to look at choices other than the 10 EE or HLV-H.

gravy,

There is just 'no free lunch' in this world (with *extremely rare* 'fantastic dumb luck' exceptions), so the EE you are asking about does not exist.

You already have the picture of the 'mega-dollar rebuild project EE's' and know better than to get into a project of that nature.

In essence, you've already answered your own question........

If you are thinking of a 'hobby shop' machine, your best choice is the simple, but functional, South Bend. A 13x30 or 16x30 South Bend is the optimal lathe for a small hobby or experimental shop. South Bend parts and tooling are readily available, with a bit of looking. Get someone who knows lathe alignments show you how to check out a lathe for wear.......you cannot afford to purchase and rebuild a worn machine.

Maybe, just maybe, you could find a small pattern Monarch gear head, a 12CK model or a 13" B model Pratt and Whitney.......but look ever so closely for wear and abuse marks. You can't afford a worn lathe at any price.

The American Pacemaker, Axelson, Lodge & Shipley, etc., class of lathes are way too heavy for your situation.

It can't hurt, and would cost you nothing, to place a 'lathe wanted' advert on your local Craig's List. Beware, tho, you'll likely be offered very cheap deals on 'brand x' lathes, built by the charming native artisans of far-off, exotic Gondwanaland.....or some such place, from castings recycled.....well, melted down, anyway....from vaguely ferrous material, such as old manhole covers or steam radiators.

There are some excellent foreign-made lathes.....Cazeneuve, for example, or the light pattern Graziano........but the bulk of the 'brand x' so-called 'lathe shaped objects' are just not a good investment, to 'put it mildly'.

I'd suggest that your best investment, for now, would be to try to befriend as many of the people here as you can, visit their shops, and see different makes/models of lathes in actual operation. Ask nicely to be permitted to operate different lathes yourself, and develop an understanding of the nature of the lathe.......then think about the class of turning work you'd like to accomplish in your own shop, and you'll have some understanding of the variety of lathe you'll need.......or prefer, anyway.

cheers

Carla

(if anyone is wondering, my computer 'forgot' my pass-word to this site, and a 'lost pass-word' procedure sent me back to the first account I had here, years ago)

Well, another thing to consider is that a lathe in the price you mentioned will, with almost certainty, need to be dismantled and repaired, especially the oiling system in the carriage and apron..................The only 10EE that I have seen that could simply be plugged in and ran without slowly grinding itself to bits was around $15,000......

Bargains and miracles certainly exist, but, in the 60 or so various (not just 10ee's, only had 2 of those) lathes that I have owned (many bought/reconditioned/sold) at least 55 of them needed at least some form of repair, and most needed the saddles and aprons removed, dismantled and cleaned up and repair problems.


Long story short: The lower the price, the better mechanic you need to be, and the better equipped your machine shop needs to be.......the last 10ee I reconditioned, I had to make a new crossfeed screw and nut (before Miller machine made their beauties), had to machine new oil pump parts, change many oil lines and metering units (almost a given on many 10ee's)

Oh, and, to be sure I would be VERY VERY reluctant to buy a 10ee long distance.......most sellers (not all, some great folks hear) are not qualified to provide an accurate assesment of what they have.

Just some random thoughts.

Donie, hey, stop in Vancouver some day if you ever come through, I can help with 10ee orphans...
Brett

"not qualified to provide an accurate assesment of what they have"

Sure they are, just not saying, cant fix it, dang thing shocked me, moved it in here, cant get it out, paid too much, I want my money back!

I will get there some time to say howdy!

Your space requirement does not fit with your lathe size requirement. Something needs to change. Best bet IMHO is a SB in the 13 to 16 size. I had a 16 well worn but good enough for what I was doing, lots of parts available, and a large population to choose from.

Tom is right, in my opinion a South Bend 13" lathe is near perfect ergonomically as well as from a versatility standpoint.......especially when converted to VFD drive. Can do very accurate work, as well as take off a reasonable amount of metal.
Brett

I have to agree with the others about the 13" South Bend. IMO, they are the best lathe SB made. You should also consider a Monarch 12" CK X 30", it will stretch your space limitations, IIRC it's about 7' long and approx 4' wide. The advice about the mechanical check out still appllies, no matter which lathe you wind up with.
Harry

Thank you all for the advice. It sounds like there is a pretty clear consensus for something along the lines of a 13" SB.

That's about what I had figured, but it is reassuring to hear it from people with actual experience.

Thanks again!

Gravy, There is a deal out there with your name on it if you are patient.
I have been chasing the elusive great condition 10EE for pennies on the dollar for years. I am a tightwad so actually spending money on one was out of the question.

I found my holy grail by accident nearly in my own back yard.
A large rigging company purchased a warehouse near me and when they bought out an elctrical contractor the 1944 10EE went there.

It is fully tooled and operational. Well maintained and not worn so that you can notice. It even has a full set of Hardinge 5C collets.

You might try these guys HGR Industrial Surplus - We sell everything

I went up there and spent the night in a motel just to be able to spend a day looking around.
I have purchased from them numerous times and they are negotiable unless it is a new item.

So good luck with your search.

I tend to cut out the middle man, often means you have to get more involved on machine pickup and loading, lots of phone calls.
Since Al Gore invented the internet for us, its a good tool, like this-

http://gsaauctions.gov/gsaauctions/aucitdsc/

click on industrial machinery, there is a Hardinge, EE and others.

It sounds like you could be in the market for an English Colchester (Clausing Colchester), Harrison, or Asian Sharp or Victor. They all have lathes in the size you are looking at, and, with care, can be found in good shape in your budget range. In your budget range, you will only find a 10EE in "plug'n'play" shape with very good luck. Then there's the tooling you might have to buy. I paid twice your budget for a geometrically near-perfect 10EE, well-painted and tooled to the hilt, but still had to spend a pile of time and a bit of money to make it really nice to work. That is because the tailstock was far from perfect and required an all-out rebuild. The electrics are still one fried tube away from a VFD retrofit.

Patience, grasshopper, will pay off.

One thing about South Bends, watch out for bad spindle bearings. I have a 14 1/2" one that I have been running since about 1975, first at a company I worked for, then in my shop after they ran out of money and I took the lathe for my last paycheck. It was virtually unused when I started with it and the machinist gave me a lecture about keeping the headstock lubricated. I (and employees) have used it so much that the paint is worn off the headstock where I rest my hand on it, but the spindle bearings are as good as the first day and the ways are barely worn. The bearings throw oil, which has to be constantly replenished. Like the bearings in your car, running out one time is all it takes to ruin them. Put a dial indicator on the spindle set to show vertical movement and pry under it with a stick. Normal clearance is .002" or less. If the spindle moves much more than that, you don't want it. In a mild case, you can polish the spindle bearing surfaces and take shims out of the bronze bearings, but that only works if wear is minimal.

Bill

P. S. It is not anywhere near the class of my Sheldon or 10EE, but it is capable of quite good work. I have made the value of the pay I wrote off over and over and over. I can't even guess how many thousands of dollars it has earned.

Well, deals do exsist. You do have to luck into them. About a year ago, I lucked into a 10 EE for $600, with steady rest, Sorgren #3 speed chuck and a 4-Jaw. No tool post or other stuff. It was/is in running condition. I paid $220 to have it moved. $20 because the guy had a flat tire while unloading the lathe. I felt sorry for him, and just happy to get the lathe into the garage. I did pay $150 for an Aloris BXA tool post, but no holders. Also $150 for an import 5C lever collet closer, that I need to adapt. It also has a D1-3 adapter plate. I will use it for the Sorgren Speed chuck. The previous owner, had some taper problems with it. I haven't run it yet, but I have it leveled and think leveling was the problem.
I sold a SB 10L to afford it, and came out even. I did repaint the base and want/need to repaint the rest of it. I also bought a 2 HP VDF. THe motor was changed to a 2 HP motor with a variable pulley.
I don't know what type of work you will be doing. So, stating aircraft precission or what length of actual work. Also, any 12 inch swing lathe, won't turn that diameter over the entire length.
South Bends are good lathes. And very good for general work. I think in very good to excellent condition, they can and usually do bring a premium. I think you relize that you are looking for a chance deal. There fore, I wouldn't rule out any brand of quality lathe. Also, you might look at Hardinge Chuckers. There are basically, HLV's with out the threading box. They use change gears. They are just as accurate. I would say $2000-$3000 for one in excellent condition. A HVL, I'd say $7,500 starting price to $15,000 with metric threading. Sheldon has been mentioned, Clausing, Harrison, possibly Warner-Swasey, Leblond and other.
Also, SB did make a precission lathe to compete with the Monarch 10EE. I heard that the designer of the 10EE, designed it. You probably wont run across one very often. Also, there are British made lathes in the 10EE class. Probably a hard find on this side of the pond, thoguh.
Tom

gravy

I vote for the 10ee if that's what you really want. There are deals out there if you're patient and able to move quickly when a deal comes up. Tell people you're looking for one. Check your local want ads, craigslist and ebay daily.

Paste the following in a google search: site:craigslist.org monarch 10ee

It will return results for the entire country.

You can also google: site:craigslist.org monarch lathe

This will return more results to sift through.

I purchased this round dial 10ee on ebay 6 years ago sight unseen except for the pictures in the ad. It cost me $800.00 and came with a 3 jaw Cushman chuck and a rocker style tool post which is enough to make it usable. It's not pretty, it has a broken knob on the tailstock, the tach is missing and I had to re-pack the bearings on the 3 idler pulleys on the headstock. It's been stored until recently because I didn't have my home shop and I wasn't willing to let my employees use it (it's mine). I turned a 4-1/2" length of 1" dia aluminum with a half a thousandth taper with no maintenance other than new oil and the idler pulleys.

I'm on advisory board for the local vo-tech machine shop program. They have the same 1949 square dial 10ee that was there when I graduated in 1982. It has had virtually no maintenance other than keeping it lubricated. Every time I go in, there is a student on the Monarch and most of the other lathes are sitting idle, even though most of the other lathes are less than 10 years old. Year after year it doesn't take the students long to figure out which one is the best lathe in the shop! I would encourage anyone interested to check out your local vo-tech programs. They need the students and you can probably work on your own projects if they are like the one here. If these programs don't get used they will go away.

This is my first post but I've been lurking here for about 6 months and have learned a lot. It's my turn to give a little back. Thanks to everyone for the great information!

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Welcome aboard! It's always nice to see another round-dial show up. I have s/n 24315, built 11-1943; yours is obviously a little older. What is your s/n and build date? Have you used the leadscrew reverse yet?

Cal

Airplane

Monarch did have a good price on the 2500 RPM tacks a couple years ago.

Hal

Airplane guy, that is a great tip for manipulating Google (searching all of craigslist). I really like it! thanks!

Cal I knew you were going to ask that as soon as I posted my picture. The S/N in 13498, built 2-1942. The plate for the main power button and the Monarch emblem are aluminum, the rest are brass. I really like the brass plates on Macona's lathe. It also has a dauber in the tailstock if you can't see it in the picture.

I'm not sure how the lead screw reverse is supposed to work. I haven't read enough of the past posts to figure that out yet. This is the first lathe I've used that had it. It's easy and fast to cut threads on my CNC's so it hasn't been a priority yet. Thanks for the welcome.