Schematic for Round dial 10EE

jpevner · Apr 11, 2010

Folk;

I have spent some time scanning and copying the schematic from the plate of my DC cover panel. It was very darkened and oily, so I traced it in Open Office, and converted to .pdf, also, I have a jpg. (not as high quality). As soon as I figure out the attachment limits, I will try to get this going.

Notes:

My lathe is a ELSR, so if yours isn't, the switchbox labeled "micro-switch LSR housing" is replaced by your forward-reverse drum switch.

There were several variants and engineering changes in the history of the M-G. We can add variant docs, or notes, whatever is needed. My unit is '43.

If there are errors, please let me know. Some parts of the label were close to illegible.

Enjoy, and regards,

Jon P.

p.s. The .jpg is up, the pdf will have to be homed at my webpage, unless someone can make an exception and lift the limit to about 120k. Currently the limit is about 19k. I will try to get the .pdf up after dinner.

peterh5322 · Apr 11, 2010

Very nice!

There should be a connection between L2 and the contact set to its immediate right.

This is the "hold" power for the "three-wire control station".

Also, the "three wire control station is, herein, being brought back to L3, whereas L1 is the correct termination.

This "error", intentional, or otherwise, was made on quite a number of 10EEs.

In general, the "three-wire control station should be between the two phases which are later connected to the overloads.

In this specific way, the "three-wire control station" includes only the real phases, and not the manufactured phase in an RPC system.

With an M-G system, the overloads protect the M-G itself, and the coolant pump, if it is fitted, is not protected.

With a WiaD system, which obviously doesn't apply to a Round Dial, the overloads protect the coolant pump, and the WiaD is protected by an overload which is found on the DC Panel.

jpevner · Apr 11, 2010

Perter I have corrected the file for the L2 connection to the contactor. I am not sure what you want me to do based on the second comment? I assume the three wire control station is the C-H contactor? Are you quoting from some document i.e. the patents?

My machine has what looks like factory coolant, but there is no mention on the schematic.

regards,

Jon P.

peterh5322 · Apr 11, 2010

"I am not sure what you want me to do based on the second comment? I assume the three wire control station is the C-H contactor? Are you quoting from some document i.e. the patents?"

Monarch always made their machines with the expectation that these would be powered by ultility three-phase, whether the basic machine required three-phase, or not.

My comment was referring to Monarch's practice of wiring the three-wire control station as if each of the three phases were real, utility phases, whereas the later machines required only single-phase.

In an RPC site, usually a residence or a rural commercial site, the third phase could be manufactured.

In these specific cases, the three-wire control station should be returned to the real phases, not to the manufactured phase.

jpevner · Apr 11, 2010

I will be powering with an RPC. It seems that the contactor only protects two of the three phases rom overload, and I think I undrstand you to mean that in an RPC situation the manufactured leg should be connected to the line without a overload heater. This makes sense. I assume they thought the third phase was inherently protected as overcurrent in it would have to be sinked to the other phases as the returns. Of course this does not protect the third leg from a short to ground. So, your local disconnect should be fused on all three wires. To protect the coolant pump, I think there should have been a bank of three low amp fuses. My Okuma has this, I don't know why Monarch left it out.

regards,

Jon P.

jpevner · Apr 11, 2010

Here is V1.0 of the PDF:

webpages.charter.net/pevco1/10EE_schematic_v1.0.pdf

peterh5322 · Apr 11, 2010

"It seems that the contactor only protects two of the three phases rom overload ..."

That's right.

Magnetic motor starters were made that way until the 1960s, after which time they had overloads in each phase.

"... I think I undrstand you to mean that in an RPC situation the manufactured leg should be connected to the line without a overload heater. This makes sense. I assume they thought the third phase was inherently protected as overcurrent in it would have to be sinked to the other phases as the returns."

Yes, that's right.

"Of course this does not protect the third leg from a short to ground. So, your local disconnect should be fused on all three wires."

Right again.

"To protect the coolant pump, I think there should have been a bank of three low amp fuses."

The coolant pump is not likely to be operated with a locked rotor as it is a centrifugal pump.

Monarch did not protect the pump motor until the WiaD ('49 and later), by which time the overloads in the starter were available for the pump as the WiaD was separately protected by an overload which was basically a starter overload, but was moved to the DC Panel.

All three overload contacts (two for the pump and one for the drive) were in series with the "three-wire control station", however, so an overload in either subsystem stopped the machine.

Cal Haines · Apr 11, 2010

jpevner said:
...
I have spent some time scanning and copying the schematic from the plate of my DC cover panel. It was very darkened and oily, so I traced it in Open Office, and converted to .pdf, also, I have a jpg. (not as high quality). As soon as I figure out the attachment limits, I will try to get this going.
...

Jon,

Thanks for taking the time to do that and for sharing it. I know how much work that is!

Does the schematic you traced have a drawing number on it?

Cal

jpevner · Apr 12, 2010

Cal;

You're quite welcome.

The Drawing number is 2679 replacing 2677

regards,

Jon P.

Cal Haines · Apr 13, 2010

Thanks Jon.

I have EE-2674, which seems to match my non-ELSR round-dial ( built 11-1943). It's dated 7-9-1942. I don't notice any differences, apart from the ELSR switches.

Cal

peterh5322 · Apr 13, 2010

"I don't notice any differences, apart from the ELSR switches."

On most schematics I have, or have seen, the basic schematic is the same between non-ELSR and ELSR machines.

Only a notation is added for ELSR, namely that the three-wire control station is slightly altered to accommodate ELSR.

The headstock Cutler-Hammer drum switch has three poles and three positions, two are N.O. (F and R), whereas one is N.C. (Off/Brake).

The ELSR unit contains three Honeywell Microswitch® SPDT switches, of which two are wired as SPST N.O. (F and R), whereas one is wired as SPST N.C. (Off/Brake).

The results are essentially the same.

btd2000 · Jul 4, 2023

I realize this thread is older, but I'd love to have the PDF of the drawing that jpevner was so kind to put together.

Especially since he states that it is drawing number EE-2679. I have a round dial with ELSR (built May 1943, MN: 17764) and am looking for this wiring diagram specifically, since I have the micro switches (R-N-L selector) just above the feed knob - no drum switch below the spindle.

I have the lower res JPG above, but would love the higher res PDF he mentions, but the links now appear dead.

Thanks in advance.

amaranth · Jul 4, 2023

He was last here in 2019, the web page doesn't respond and it was not archived in the internet archive. At least the jpeg is here and usable.

rakort · Jul 4, 2023

I bet Cal can hook you up!

Andy FitzGibbon · Jul 4, 2023

I'm sure Monarch could too, but it wouldn't be free.

Cal Haines · Jul 5, 2023

I attached Jon's PDF to post #6.

btd2000 · Jul 5, 2023

That's the one, thank you so much Cal!

And thank you, and the other helpful souls, for the wealth of information about these machines, across this forum. I've been devouring all information, especially related to my new round dial 10EE with ELSR (May 1943, MN: 17764).

I am trying to resurrect the original M-G system as it looks to be in good shape overall, and almost complete. A single component from the DC panel (the Struthers Dunn relay I believe), and the main motor starter contactor, are missing. It appears the previous owner was tracking down a particular issue, as the rest of the wiring, AC motor, exciter, and DC motor assemblies all look untouched.

I'll create a new post with my questions but have been educating myself with all of your super helpful postings, so that my question (when posed) is as well informed as possible.

This wiring diagram (now that I have the PDF) is going to be blown up and printed on large poster stock, and will hang above the machine as I trace everything and diagnose further. Thank you again!

Schematic for Round dial 10EE

Stainless

Attachments

Diamond

Stainless

Diamond

Stainless

Stainless

Attachments

Diamond

Diamond

Stainless

Diamond

Diamond

Plastic

Aluminum

Hot Rolled

Diamond

Diamond

Plastic

Similar threads