Thread: Synthetic oil in headstock?

Is anyone using a synthetic gear oil in the headstock of their 10EE, Rivett 1020 etc.? Is their any advantages or disadvantages? It seems to be a lot more expensive. I keep my shop at 40 degrees F in the winter when I am not in it, so I think synthetic would have some advantages then.

Well, the common thought that I've encountered is that one would want a non-detergent ol in the headstock of a lathe. The manual for 13 X 40 (name withheld) lathe recommends Shell Tellus 32, which is, I understand, a non-detergent oil. I can't find that without ordering it on the internet and paying shipping, etc. so I've been using 30 wt. non-detergent oil that I get from a local tractor supply. It seems to work since the lathe is now almost 15 years old and is still in perfect condition, speaking of the gears anyway.

I understand that the principal value of synthetic oil is its ability to hold its viscosity when quite warm, as inside of an automobile or motorcycle engine. It's also generally chock-full of detergents and additives. Furthermore, there are few sources for synthetic oil in straight weights. Usually, you'll find it in 5w-30, 10w-40, 15w-50, 20w-50 and so on.

My take on it is that non-detergent oil in a straight grade is plenty good enough since a lathe gearbox will seldom encounter much in the way of heat, at least I haven't noticed any heating in my lathe. At 40 degrees F. i doubt there would be any advantage to synthetic oil.

The other issue you mention is an important one. The prices for synthetic oils are usually about double to four times that of regular dino oil. That's enough to discourage me. I used to run synthetic oil in my motorcycle but I quit doing that then it got up to $9.00 a quart. I use regular oil now and I can't tell the difference.

YMMV.

As my old man used to say "any oil is better than no oil". I always use a fairly light hydraulic oil, buy it at Walmart, no problems, if its good enough for a 400 hp tractor its got to be good enough for the use I put it to.
BTW, cleaning up I found what I think is the collet rack (board) for those 6H collets. Do you want it?
Bob

I use the specified grades of oils in my machine tools. Oil is inexpensive, machine tools aren't. Why fight it or experiment? The designers spent time selecting the lubricants and presumably knew more about it than I can reverse engineer without full knowledge of their design.

If you would like to pursue a synthetic oil for your machine a good place to start is by contacting one of the major oil producers for the oil specified for your machine and ask them about it.

Any oil is better than none of course but some additive packages can harm some metals. Some are better for corrosion prevention, some for extreme pressure, etc.

Shell Tellus 32 is an ISO grade 32 lubricant. Don't confuse it with a SAE grade 30 lubricant. Here's a chart which cross references ISO and SAE grades and shows viscosity and density values for them.

http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/is...il-d_1207.html

Bob, thanks but I don't think it will fit all my 6R's now, I have a little over 90!

Seems to be some confusion here as some responders are assuming that synthetic oil must mean automotive engine synthetic oil. Mobil, among others, produces different types of synthetic oil suitable for machine tools, turbines and compressors.

I think if I was considering synthetic oil in my lathe, I'd call Mobil and give them Monarch's recommended lubricant and ask them for a cross reference to a synthetic and ask them if there might be any compatibility issues with say 50 year old seal materials.

Bob, those 50 year old seals are toast and the least of worries. They are long past due for replacing.

Another point beyond equivalency of a synthetic vs dino oil is compatibility of the syn with the dino in an old machine. Unless the machine is completely disassembled and cleaned there will be plenty of old oil and sludge left in the headstock even when drained.

The old style three sightglass headstock 10EE spindle bearing cavities "drain" by removing the sightglasses. Plenty of "stuff" stays behind. Same for the headstock gearcase between them drained through the pipe. The later headstocks with one sightglass are the same, there's a low point. Wear particles are meant to drop and stay in the bottom of the headstock by design. The specified lubricant is a key player to make it so.

It's astonishing how much oxidised goop and sludge which is encapsulating wear particles doesn't come out of a 30-60 year old machine through the drains. Unless a complete teardown and cleaning is being done the last thing one wants to do is disturb or cause this mess to mix with fresh lube. The original specified dino oil won't stir the pot, it's one of it's attributes.

Toss some synthetic in there, risk stirring the pot, it's your machine.

Toss some synthetic in there, risk stirring the pot, it's your machine.

I guess it's inevitable that some level of a pissing contest is going to be the end result whenever oil is the topic. As has been suggested, if Mobil engineers understand the application and say that they have a synthetic that cross references from the originally recommended oil I don't think there is a lot of risk involved. No need to avoid synthetics based on superstition. But then modern petroleum based oils are good and I don't think there's much if anything to be gained by going to a synthetic in a 10EE.

Guys, motor oil should not be used in machine tools! Automotive motor oils are engineered for a very different environment. They are designed to work in conjunction with an oil filter and the heat of an engine. The oil holds the fine particles in suspension until the filter can strain them out. It also holds the water in suspension until the heat of the engine can drive it off. For a machine tool, you want the fine particles to settle to the bottom of the sump and the water to float on top until it evaporates. Back in the day, motor oil was just mineral oil, very like gear oil and there wasn't such a problem.

If you don't believe this, take a teaspoon of fine grit from your grinder and few tablespoons of water and put it in a jar full of motor oil. Shake it up real good, then check it in a few weeks or months. Most of the water and krap will still be in solution. You don't want the helical gears in your headstock constantly bathed in grit and moisture, do you?

Before I ran something like Shell Tellus (which is hydraulic oil, not motor oil) in my 10EE, I would want to check with the manufacturer and ask about the filter issue. I believe that Shell Tellus is intended to be used with a filter.

Cal

Royal Purple Industrial makes a lot of Synthetic Lubes, including way lubes and gear lubes.

http://www.royal-purple-industrial.com/index.html

If you don't believe this, take a teaspoon of fine grit from your grinder and few tablespoons of water and put it in a jar full of motor oil. Shake it up real good, then check it in a few weeks or months. Most of the water and krap will still be in solution. You don't want the helical gears in your headstock constantly bathed in grit and moisture, do you?

Cal,

Have you actually tried this experiment yourself? It sounds like an interesting test.

Note that I am not promoting the use of automotive oil in machine tools!
But, it seems to me that gravity is going to bring abrasive grinding and metal particles to the bottom regardless of any detergent additives the oil may have. The detergents in automotive oils will dissolve combustion by-products but can't keep heavier non-dissolvable particles in solution without the help of anti-gravity additives. But your proposed test is very interesting and I think I'll try it. Again, I'm not suggesting anyone should use automotive oil in a machine tool. I'm just a wannabe scientist trying to understand the physics or chemistry or whatever it is that's at work here.

Thanks for posting the suggested experiment.

Bob,

I've seen it written up (here on PM I think). I guess I really should give it a try. Not sure about the best way to test the solids part. Maybe use some powdered abrasive like jeweler's rouge?

Cal

Cal, is right about automotive oil, wrong stuff, in fact totally wrong for Monarch lathes.
There are many industrial oils out there, that conform to what is supposed to be used.
But, how many change the oils every 6 months as the manual states should be done?
Well, I do it once a year.

Originally Posted by donie

Cal, is right about automotive oil, wrong stuff, in fact totally wrong for Monarch lathes.
There are many industrial oils out there, that conform to what is supposed to be used.
But, how many change the oils every 6 months as the manual states should be done?
Well, I do it once a year.

Donie, No one's suggesting the use of automotive oil - it's just a "scientific" (ha!) discussion. There are also some synthetic industrial oils out there that might be suitable for a Monarch and that's a valid topic.

I'd guess that the 6 month oil change is for a machine in service at least one full shift every day. Most 10EE's aren't used much these days although I'm sure there are exceptions.

Originally Posted by DaveE907

I use the specified grades of oils in my machine tools. Oil is inexpensive, machine tools aren't. Why fight it or experiment? The designers spent time selecting the lubricants and presumably knew more about it than I can reverse engineer without full knowledge of their design.

If you would like to pursue a synthetic oil for your machine a good place to start is by contacting one of the major oil producers for the oil specified for your machine and ask them about it.

Any oil is better than none of course but some additive packages can harm some metals. Some are better for corrosion prevention, some for extreme pressure, etc.

Shell Tellus 32 is an ISO grade 32 lubricant. Don't confuse it with a SAE grade 30 lubricant. Here's a chart which cross references ISO and SAE grades and shows viscosity and density values for them.

http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/is...il-d_1207.html

Right, Tellus 32 is 10W versus the 30W I'm running. IMHO. 10W is too thin for the gearbox in my lathe. 30W N.D. works well for my machine. 15 years now. (shrug).

This matter of oil quality, type and grade is extremely controversial. In motorcycle circles, it becomes almost manic. There is the dino group and then there is the synthetic group. WIthin those two warring camps, there are subsets for different grades, brands and what-not. During their arguments they persist in throwing ephithets, curses and discussions of each others heredity on every bike site I've ever visited.

In like manner, I've yet to ever hear two machinists agree on what to use. I have to say that this discussion is relatively sedate.

My Dad told me a story about one of his early cars. I don't remember the brand. He and his brother (my uncle) had been out driving and at some point, the oil plug was lost and they somehow noticed the leak. Not having any oil or tools, they plugged the drain hole with a stick screwed tightly and filled the crankcase up with.............water.

They made it home about 20 miles, cleaned the water out and replaced the missing plug and oil. The vehicle was still running when it was sold a few years later. That was one of the early cars with dip oiling. I guess there was enough oil left to mix with the water and keep things moving.

I once ran my Harley 45" underwater in the Des Plaines river outside of Chicago in an endurance run. I cleared the cylinders and finally got it started. The oil turned milk white with a nice foam. I managed to ride it home. I didn't get off free, however, since I had bent both connecting rods. After a new set of rods later on, all was well.

So, something in the place where the oil goes is probably better than nothing. When all of the opinions on which oil to use begin to match, I'm going to get worried.

.

I would think that the synthetic industrial oils would be fine for use in the Monarch.
One place, I do like to keep fresh oil in is, the EE back gear box, I have seen too many worn out ones.
As far as old Harleys, if there ever was a severe application, that is the one.
Years ago, I ran Aero Shell, but, with that oil one needs to be sure to always bring the bike and oil up to full temp every time, otherwise water will build up, leading to corrosion problems.

Originally Posted by Newman109

My Dad told me a story about one of his early cars. I don't remember the brand. He and his brother (my uncle) had been out driving and at some point, the oil plug was lost and they somehow noticed the leak. Not having any oil or tools, they plugged the drain hole with a stick screwed tightly and filled the crankcase up with.............water.

They made it home about 20 miles, cleaned the water out and replaced the missing plug and oil. The vehicle was still running when it was sold a few years later. That was one of the early cars with dip oiling. I guess there was enough oil left to mix with the water and keep things moving.

Good story! Some friends and I did much the same in about 1961 with an old clapped out 1951 Plymouth (flathead six) we were horsing around with in a field. Rolled the thing on it's side and all the oil ran out of the oil filler. We turned it back rightside up, filled the crankcase with water from a nearby creek and drove it until it was so battered it wouldn't drive anymore. The engine was still running though.

The older cars must be tougher than the newer ones.

One of the guys who picks up my garbage was saying that a fellow employee checked the oil on his wife's car and found it to be low. He had no engine oil so he added what he had, cooking oil. You guessed it, in less than 20 miles the engine was.."fried"

Hal

Originally Posted by 220swift

The older cars must be tougher than the newer ones.

One of the guys who picks up my garbage was saying that a fellow employee checked the oil on his wife's car and found it to be low. He had no engine oil so he added what he had, cooking oil. You guessed it, in less than 20 miles the engine was.."fried"

Hal

You might say that his use of cooking oil in the crankcase led to a "shortening" of the life of that engine. Ahem. LOL.

IIRC, I read something about synthetic motor oils like mobil-1 being able to get through small cracks and leaking from lathe gearboxes, etc. to be a problem - multiple people reported leaks while using mobil-1 that cleared up when switching to another oil.