Thread: update on my EE1000

Well, I finally got all the electrical concerns straightened out, and fired her up a couple days ago. From the noises coming from the headstock, I was sure there had been a malfunction and gears that were never meant to mesh had tried to. So, I took the cover off the headstock and was pleasantly surprised that it wasn't any problem with the gears, but there was still some god awful noise coming from somewhere.
With a little detective work, I narrowed the location down to the drive belt end of the spindle, but what would be clunking and banging at that end? One clue was that the noise was worst at slow rpm, and disappeared with increasing rpm. Closer listening led me to the 5 groove drive pulley. At the far end of this pulley there is what looks like a clutch adjustment nut and locking washer. Which I quickly determined could not be a clutch, because this lathe does not have one! Still haven't figured out what this is, unless it is some kind of bearing preload adjuster, but why would there be a thrust handling bearing at the back end of the spindle?
Anyway, back to the noise. I haven't taken it apart to find out what, but there must be something banging around in the upper belt pulley. As uncommon as these lathes are, I have my doubts that anyone has had this end of the spindle apart to know what to look out for, or what this "thing" is that could be loose and banging around, but thought I would ask before I start.
I have a manual for the earlier 13EE, but can see there are some differences in this end of the spindle, so it isn't a great deal of help.
So, what say ye?

Dale Nelson

Dale,

The 10EE spindle has a nut to set preload at the drive end so I don't see why the 1000EE might not? Are you sure the noise is not an idler pulley? There is oil in the headstock?

Steve

Steve

There is no idler pulley in the motor belt drive, also, this lathe is kinda unusual, in that the gears, bearings, and all other parts are "mist oiled", and so there is no large amount of oil in the headstock, just what hangs around while it gets returned back to the oil reservoir.

You could be right about this being a preload nut, just thought the front bearing was a double bearing with a preload spacer between them. I will figure out what is what before I start taking anything apart!

Dale

Never seen a EE1000, but troubleshooting is troubleshooting. It's a machine and I have found that it's the little thing that gets ya.

Some ideas I would check out before taking things apart (besides taking belts off).
I have seen the drive pulley on several lathes that have worked loose and wore the shaft and pulley. They make an awful noise, that is worst at slow rpm. Belt tension may prevent you from being able to detect the loosness until the belts are off. A close inspection of the nut and the surface it clamps to, may reveal something. You may be able to see wear products (metal dust or rust dust) or burrs around the worn spots. If there is a finger washer to lock the nut, is it tightly clamped? With the belts off, vigorously rotate the pulley back and forth, then to and from the headstock looking for a clunk or lost motion.

"but why would there be a thrust handling bearing at the back end of the spindle?"

The pulley, several spacers and possibly a duplex pair of bearings are probably clamped up against a shoulder on the spindle. If this is the case, the bearings are floating on the outside races in the headstock casting, (to allow for thermal growth in the spindle). If the preload is lost due to the clamping getting loose, those bearings can really howl, coupled with a possible pulley flopping around on the spindle, pivoting on the key every half turn makes a real howling, pounding racket.

Hope this helps,
Bill

I don't have a EE1000, and probably never will have, but could you take a bunch of pics of your journey with this machine? They are quite rare and like Mr. Spock, I find them " fascinating"

Originally Posted by hitandmiss

Never seen a EE1000, but troubleshooting is troubleshooting. It's a machine and I have found that it's the little thing that gets ya.

Some ideas I would check out before taking things apart (besides taking belts off).
I have seen the drive pulley on several lathes that have worked loose and wore the shaft and pulley. They make an awful noise, that is worst at slow rpm. Belt tension may prevent you from being able to detect the loosness until the belts are off. A close inspection of the nut and the surface it clamps to, may reveal something. You may be able to see wear products (metal dust or rust dust) or burrs around the worn spots. If there is a finger washer to lock the nut, is it tightly clamped? With the belts off, vigorously rotate the pulley back and forth, then to and from the headstock looking for a clunk or lost motion.

"but why would there be a thrust handling bearing at the back end of the spindle?"

The pulley, several spacers and possibly a duplex pair of bearings are probably clamped up against a shoulder on the spindle. If this is the case, the bearings are floating on the outside races in the headstock casting, (to allow for thermal growth in the spindle). If the preload is lost due to the clamping getting loose, those bearings can really howl, coupled with a possible pulley flopping around on the spindle, pivoting on the key every half turn makes a real howling, pounding racket.

Hope this helps,
Bill

Sage advice Bill, well done.

As I replied in my question in General, I did take the duplex bearings out, they are mounted on a length of machined tubing that surrounds the spindle, so these bearings do not technically support the spindle. Their main purpose is to support this tubing which is what the top drive pulley is attached to, the opposite end has a gear that is the prime mover for all the gear combinations, except when the drive is placed in "open belt" or direct drive.

So after cleaning and oiling the bearings, I put the thing back together and it resulted in about a 90% reduction in noise. Placing a wood dowel against the rear bearing, I could hear some ticks and other noises, so will have to replace the pair, just as soon as I can bear the cost of even ebay new in box grade 9 bearings, which are 1/3 the cost of a new pair from a catalog.

More to come as the situation dictates
Dale

Word pictures are good, photos would be a big help. Good to hear cleaning the bearings greatly quieted things down. Any ideas how they got full of trash? What environment are they open to?

Trying to visualize the design: a torque tube driven at one end by belts from the motor, the other end of the tube has a gear to drive the internal headstock spindle drive gear change, the tube is coaxial to the spindle and supported by grade 9 bearings.

How is the rear of the spindle supported? By bearings in a bore in the headstock or internally to the torque tube by bearings? If the later it would be a very unusual arrangement. If the former and the tube is independent to the spindle support no one but the most demanding customers the machine was made for would care if the tube support bearings were less than grade 9.

To second Daryl, these lathes are rare and fascinating. Photos... please!

Originally Posted by swellwelder

So after cleaning and oiling the bearings, I put the thing back together and it resulted in about a 90% reduction in noise. Placing a wood dowel against the rear bearing, I could hear some ticks and other noises, so will have to replace the pair, just as soon as I can bear the cost of even ebay new in box grade 9 bearings, which are 1/3 the cost of a new pair from a catalog.

Double check the grade of the bearings - if they're not at all involved in the spindle then any standard grade should do. On the 10EE the outboard spindle bearings are a lot less than a ABEC 7, IIRC they're something like a 3. It makes sense since they're 20 inches back from the front precision bearings so any error is divided by that distance.

Originally Posted by rke[pler

Double check the grade of the bearings - if they're not at all involved in the spindle then any standard grade should do. On the 10EE the outboard spindle bearings are a lot less than a ABEC 7, IIRC they're something like a 3. It makes sense since they're 20 inches back from the front precision bearings so any error is divided by that distance.

Right AT the front-bearing, yes. But logic says that any error 20 inches back of it is replicated again exactly 20 inches in FRONT of the front-bearing as well, does it not?

Not that it matters in the same way on the separate 'tube' in question here.

Standard bearings in good condition should easily trump high-grade bearings that are damaged.

Bill

Originally Posted by thermite

Right AT the front-bearing, yes. But logic says that any error 20 inches back of it is replicated again exactly 20 inches in FRONT of the front-bearing as well, does it not?

On unconstrained work, sure.

Originally Posted by rke[pler

On unconstrained work, sure.

Never personally been one for hanging 'unconstrained' stuff 20" out front of the 4-J, nor even a fraction of that...but now you've got me wondering...

Did the clever folk who implemented the 10EE select a combination of arse-end bearing clearance and belt-tension that partially offset the sag of gravity when a precision test-bar is socketed into the #12 Jarno spindle?

Many a financier has made his bones on the "Law of Countervailing Errors". Why not a toolmaker?

Bill

Don't know about the 1000EE, but the 10EE has a couple different rear bearing configurations. The "Wreck" has a matched pair of ABEC 7, others have a double row angular contact bearing.
Harry

Originally Posted by beckley23

Don't know about the 1000EE, but the 10EE has a couple different rear bearing configurations. The "Wreck" has a matched pair of ABEC 7, others have a double row angular contact bearing.
Harry

That is indeed more in keeping with wot I would have expected.

I note that more than one of the OTHER 'great' lathes used a separate support for their final belted drive sheaves so as not to transfer side-loads to the spindle.

That Monarch accomplished the precision they did without such would seem to indicate they had it down 'well enough' that possible vibration or asymmetry of the splines or resilient coupling then needed was perhaps a source of greater concern - either initially, or over time - than any side-loading or vibration from the belts.

That scenario would have been a bit worse with Gilmer belting, new to the market right around the time the first 10EE was made, but perhaps better-yet than vee belts with the decades-newer PolyVee not yet on the radar.

For sure, Monarch have not had to do a lot of apologizing about spindle accuracy, even 70+ years-on...

;-)

Bill

"Placing a wood dowel against the rear bearing, I could hear some ticks and other noises, so will have to replace the pair, just as soon as I can bear the cost of even ebay new in box grade 9 bearings, which are 1/3 the cost of a new pair from a catalog."

Try cleaning using full-strength Pine-Sol, followed by a hot water flush, followed by a Bra-Kleen flush. I have saved many super-precision bearing sets that way. I usually use the family's bathtub to accomplish the Pine-Sol flush and hot water flush. The Bra-Kleen, I do outside.

I usually test the bearings using a stethoscope. Also good is a dowel pressed against the housing and the ear, but not IN the ear, of course.


"For sure, Monarch have not had to do a lot of apologizing about spindle accuracy, even 70+ years-on..."

For sure ... NO complaints about Monarch's headstock designs. Simply the very best.

Originally Posted by peterh5322

I usually use the family's bathtub to accomplish the Pine-Sol flush and hot water flush. The Bra-Kleen, I do outside.

Knew California was impoverished these days, but even in West-By-God Virginia the kinsmen would pop the few bucks at the Big Box for a polypropylene mortar-mixing tray.

Pin-Sol in the tub ruins the taste of the moonshine, 'Absinthe' not being on our radar...

Bill

Originally Posted by DaveE907

Word pictures are good, photos would be a big help. Good to hear cleaning the bearings greatly quieted things down. Any ideas how they got full of trash? What environment are they open to?

Trying to visualize the design: a torque tube driven at one end by belts from the motor, the other end of the tube has a gear to drive the internal headstock spindle drive gear change, the tube is coaxial to the spindle and supported by grade 9 bearings.

How is the rear of the spindle supported? By bearings in a bore in the headstock or internally to the torque tube by bearings? If the later it would be a very unusual arrangement. If the former and the tube is independent to the spindle support no one but the most demanding customers the machine was made for would care if the tube support bearings were less than grade 9.

To second Daryl, these lathes are rare and fascinating. Photos... please!

The spindle is only supported at the chuck end and at approx the middle of the spindle. The bearing in the center is a single row ball bearing with a similar multi-tang lock washer and notched nut to set some kind of preload on this bearing. There are no bearings in this "tube" I mentioned earlier supporting the spindle.

When I have it apart again, will take photos and a video of the hydraulic/electric shifting between ranges. Its too bad Monarch didn't make a clear cover for the headstock so this ballet movement could be see by anyone using it.

Dale

Originally Posted by swellwelder

too bad Monarch didn't make a clear cover for the headstock so this ballet movement could be see by anyone using it.

Dale

NFW. Too distracting whilst turning revenue work...

But if you could make a short video of it with the covers off....

;-)

Bill

Originally Posted by swellwelder

The spindle is only supported at the chuck end and at approx the middle of the spindle. The bearing in the center is a single row ball bearing with a similar multi-tang lock washer and notched nut to set some kind of preload on this bearing. There are no bearings in this "tube" I mentioned earlier supporting the spindle.

When I have it apart again, will take photos and a video of the hydraulic/electric shifting between ranges. Its too bad Monarch didn't make a clear cover for the headstock so this ballet movement could be see by anyone using it.

Dale

Thanks for the clarification Dale, the spindle support is as expected.

Looking forward to whatever photos or video you make of the machine's inner workings. You have a view that most of us will never see.